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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 0:59:02 GMT -6
This is the subject I was thinking about recently. How do people who follow end time prophecy think about free will?
I believe in premillennialism, pre-tribulation rapture and some form of dispensationalism. At the same time, I fully believe in predestination. I don't like to label myself as calvinist, since I don't think a man is to get a glory for what God revealed about Himself through the Bible, but for the brevity sake, calvinist's views and mine are rather close.
I would guess most people who believe in premillennialism, rapture and dispensationalism don't believe in predestination (again, for brevity sake, I'm talking about what would be called calvinistic view).
I would be interested to learn views on this forum. Maybe I'll be surprised, I don't know. Also, some Christians who don't believe in predestination are rather hostile in relating to those who do.
Maybe to add couple of connections regarding predestination and end times.
Israel was reborn in 1948, against all odds historically speaking. In 1967, Jerusalem was won in 6 days, paralleling God's creation in 6 days. There is a string of ten jubilees in Jerusalem changing rulers - 1517 (Turks), 1917 (English), 1967 (Jews) - all ending on 7, God's number for perfect completion. Daniel's 70 weeks were "determined". Revelation describes highly orchestrated event, including the timings of who comes to the stage when, it does not look like a random event at all.
These are just some hints quickly thrown together. But the point is that God is in full control. There is no randomness or dependence on humans for God's prophecy to be fulfilled. People who established Israel in 1948 didn't have a say in it, it was God leading them. Neither did people who captured Jerusalem in 1967, at the end of Jubilee string, in 6 days. Son of perdition also has no say in his role, he is going to do what is determined for him to do, at the time God determined it. And so on. That's what predestination, as I see it being revealed in the Bible, shows.
By the way, people who don't study predestination usually think it's about God choosing who is going to be saved and who is not. That's true, but that's only part of it. In essence, predestination is about God having full control over His creation and His plan. That includes God choosing who is going to be saved and who is not, but also it's much more than that.
Maybe one more thing to add. Consequence of predestination is that all people who God predestined to be raptured will be raptured.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 5:09:21 GMT -6
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
I am a pretrib, a type of dispensationalist, and I believe that predestination and free will are kind of wrapped up together. I'm one who believes that God knows from the beginning to the end; and he knows how I will choose..yet I do have to choose. I believe it's one of those mysterious things of God.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 5, 2017 10:25:37 GMT -6
I believe like truthseeker said-- I am neither a calvinist nor an arminian, but I believe that both views are largely true at the same time, but that there is an over-reaching dimension to God that transcends and includes both. The two, I believe, do not contradict, but rather they are intertwined and complimentary portions of a far greater whole.
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Post by whatif on Jul 5, 2017 10:54:18 GMT -6
I'm in agreement with truthseeker, as well! What an amazing God we have!
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Post by rt on Jul 5, 2017 12:39:35 GMT -6
Here is how I see it. I liken it to a wedding, in fact scripture also makes this analogy(Matt 22:1-14, 25:1-13) the son of the king is getting married and the king sends invitations to everyone, the king desires everyone to attend, He predestines all people to come into the feast. However only those who respond favorably to the invitation actually attend the feast, they exercise their free will to decide if they are willing or not to attend.
Every person's name is written on the invitation list (book of life), but only those who respond to the invitation actually enter into the feast. Those who fail to respond have their names removed from the list. No where in scripture do we ever see people's names added to the book of life, but we do see people blotted out from it:
The parable in Matthew ends with this statement:
I see this as saying, Many are called or invited to the wedding feast, but few are chosen to actually attend, only those who respond positively to the invitation are chosen to attend the feast. It is both free will and predestination. Those who were found unworthy to accept the invitation were those who had an excuse not to attend. The same is true of the parable of the 10 virgins, those worthy to go in had oil for their lamps, while those unknown by the groom who did not have oil were sent away.
God is not willing for anyone to suffer judgment, His will is that all repent and be saved, but when it comes to human beings, we have to make the choice to repent and be saved. He will work to that end, to bring us to that place but God in His sovereignty allows man free will to choose to accept His invitation or not.
Ultimately God knows who will enter the kingdom and who will not, He knows who will receive His gift of salvation and who will not. Which to me explains Romans 8: 29-30 as well as Ephesians 1:5,11. All who are called are predestined, but not many are chosen from those who are called to carry out the will of God.
It's kind of like saying to my young son, your name has been written on a list of those who will receive a sum of money for a college education at a specific school, when you graduate from high school you may use this money for that purpose, if you choose not to, you will not be able to attend that school. My son has been predestined by this offer to attend this college. But when he graduates he chooses instead to get a job at a local factory, he in his free will, chose not to accept the offer and cannot then be educated at that school. It's not a perfect analogy, but I think you get the point.
That's my take on it, perhaps it is a bit too simplistic for such a complicated subject. But that is the best way I know how to explain it and understand it myself.
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Post by kjs on Jul 7, 2017 8:42:06 GMT -6
Romans 8:29 - 31 covers much of this...
I think it is a combination of both. ...
Somehow put together in a way that WILL make sense, just not necessarily make sense now!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 8, 2017 15:54:39 GMT -6
I heard a sermon regarding this and it made sense to me. It is as if God is in a helicopter, flying overhead watching a speeding car escaping police. The driver of that car is unaware of the detour in the road. The bridge is under construction and a huge section of the bridge deck is gone. The driver in a panic hurry looking behind, does not see the signs. The car crashes thru the barrier, onto the bridge and plummets to the ground. God saw that it was all going to happen. The driver didn't. If predestination is defined as "God knows what you will do", then I can believe that. Even the most stubborn unbeliever can answer the call, we just don't know they will.. and, if I need correction or guidance to discern the truth of this topic, let me know.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 21:38:25 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl : I used to believe in us having free will to, among other things, choose salvation, but I don't believe that anymore. I don't believe we can decide to accept God's gift of salvation. It's all God's doing. In that sense, we don't have free will, at least not currently. That's my view, from what I read in the Bible. I'm writing this because you said "if I need correction or guidance to discern the truth of this topic, let me know", but I am not going to go into many, many Biblical revelations why we don't choose salvation, but God gives it to us on His own counsel. This might not be the avenue for providing needed detailed explanations. I would suggest to you that you go and research the topic on your own, from multiple sources, with Bible in your hand, and ultimately, Holy Spirit may guide you to understand it, or not. Nobody is guaranteed perfect understanding of God's reality. Everybody (who is saved) gets some knowledge, with God's permission, while not the other. Nobody gets it all. This topic is not the salvation issue, though. If you believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, paid for your sins on the cross, and was resurrected, you are saved. That's the Gospel. We will get complete understanding of all things God communicated to us when the time comes.
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Post by whatif on Jul 9, 2017 1:20:44 GMT -6
Romans 8:29 - 31 covers much of this... I think it is a combination of both. ... Somehow put together in a way that WILL make sense, just not necessarily make sense now! Yes, I agree, kjs!
Romans 8:29-30 says, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
The verse shows us that the Lord foreknew who would turn to Him. Strong's Concordance for the word "foreknew" in this particular verse says, "4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer)."
"προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29 (τῶν εἰς αὐτόν (Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho)
Source: Strong's Concordance, BibleHub.com, 2004-2016, biblehub.com/greek/4267.htm
So God knew beforehand who would turn to Him--and He's known since before creation--and He predestined all He knew would make that choice to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
Strong's Concordance says of the word "predestined" in this verse, "to foreordain, appoint beforehand, Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing."
Source: Strong's Concordance, BibleHub.com, 2004-2016, biblehub.com/greek/4309.htm
So, the Lord knew who would make the choice to turn to Him, and He commanded that it be so. Having commanded it would happen as He foreknew it would, He called those people to Him so that they would indeed make that choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 2:03:10 GMT -6
whatif : Actually, "foreknew" probably has a more substantive meaning in Romans 8:29. It's the same meaning from "Adam knew Eve his wife and she conceived..." (Genesis 4:1) or when Jesus says "Get away, I never knew you." Knowing in those verses means intimate relationship. Obviously, not exclusively sexual relationship, but intimate, loving relationship. When two people know each other in deep loving way. (By the way, although newer translations changed "Adam knew Eve" into "Adam made love to Eve", original Hebrew word is "knew".) Can Jesus tell anyone "I never knew you", since Jesus, God, knows everything and everyone? Yes, in what would seem a symbolic way. On the other hand, He can literally say to those He didn't have a loving relationship with that He never knew them, meaning, He never had a loving relationship with them. So, foreknew, as it seems, probably means same loving relationship, in advance. God, in His power, can start having loving relationship with whom He chooses, even before He creates them. God loves everybody, in certain way, but He doesn't have intimate loving relationship with everybody. If "foreknow" in Romans means "knowing things in advance", we can interpret it in more than one way. But I think "foreknow" in this context is hardly a type of intelectual knowledge. And, if you take a look at the greek word "foreknow", the root of that word is "to know", or ginosko. Well, "know" is used in the New Testament, among other things, the same way it's used in the Old Testament - as a verb to describe sexual relationship (for example, in Matthew 1:25). Again, just as a subset of wider meaning of "to know", which means intimate relationship, or deep understanding, in general. To have a deeper understanding of the other. When applied to another being it means to have a deep intimate loving relationship. So "forknow" can certainly be interpreted as a loving relationship, but in advance, which God certainly has power to achieve. And I think that's what's in Romans.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 9, 2017 12:07:27 GMT -6
Well I am ok with everybody expressing their opinions and understandings about this topic, as we are doing, but at the end of the day, as henrym aptly pointed out: "We will get complete understanding of all things God communicated to us when the time comes." I agree with that statement, and where it comes to the discussion of predestination, it helps to remember that this discussion eventually comes up on nearly every Christian discussion board in existence, and that usually there are people from both (or more accurately, all) possible sides of the discussion participating--and there are usually also some newly saved Christians observing too, who are just forming their understandings of the topic for the first time. A couple things I want us all to keep in mind, please, as we do this: 1. This is a very deep and tricky subject, that can be disturbing to the minds of some people, and the answers are not always clear and easy for some to understand. . . and 2. We must love one another and demonstrate that love of each other in our Lord as we discuss all topics, as the concept and act of spiritual love is far more important than most other topics, and a lack of love in dealing with others on differences of perception in doctrine or theory can be devastating to the body of Christ. I am not accusing anyone of being unloving, as I don't think I have detected that here, but I know that in times past, people have shown a lack of love toward others over their debates of these controversial topics. So, please carry on with the discussion in a loving and understanding way, preferring one another.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 12:29:59 GMT -6
Agreed Jim. For me... I still absolutely believe in free will. Each and every day I have a free will to either do the things in which the Spirit leads me to do or push it aside. I'm not claiming that I was so great for making the right decision. But I'm grateful to God to allow me to go to a depth where I would desire to make that decision and that he did not let me go so far that I wouldn't .
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Post by whatif on Jul 9, 2017 13:20:22 GMT -6
Well I am ok with everybody expressing their opinions and understandings about this topic, as we are doing, but at the end of the day, as henrym aptly pointed out: "We will get complete understanding of all things God communicated to us when the time comes." Agreed, watchmanjim--and henrym!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 13:23:40 GMT -6
About prophecy, I always saw it like this: God can see the future without ordianing it. Even in the quantum level; there may be probabilities where the particle may go, but God knows where it will go. God can ordain events, but He also may just know how it will go. God ordains the Gig/Magog war, but doesn't ordain how people react to the plagues.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 16:16:10 GMT -6
I agree with what watchmanjim said about the sensitivity of this topic. And there is really not a need for a debate about it here. I was just interested to get a sense on where forum members stand on it, but not really to discuss it much. Those who are lead to research it, can certainly do it. I would add one thing. Compared to eternity, a number of decades on perishing earth in perishing bodies is not even a speck. What life is really going to be in eternity, we can't even comprehend. To me it seems that comparison to a baby might apply somewhat. A baby in mother's womb is severely limited to what it can do, and can't even imagine all things a human is able to both do and experience as an adult. I think that we are some kind of baby here. Even though it seems to us we can do, or feel, or decide, or act a lot, it's basically nothing compared to what awaits. As Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 2: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human mind conceived, the things God has prepared for those who love him."
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