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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2019 11:03:13 GMT -6
We are studying together (or I thought we were). No one is proving right or wrong because we really can't prove it. Setting aside the pre, mid, post views as they may tend to drive the rapture vantage point, let's continue to search scriptures, patterns etc as study partners
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Post by venge on Nov 4, 2019 5:46:37 GMT -6
But putting Scripture together some of us do see that we do leave. It depends on if you take them literally or not. Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior the Lord Jesus Christ. Isaiah 26:19-21 and 1 Thes 4:15-5:3 (which I posted earlier in the thread) John 14:2-4 In my Father's house are many rooms...I will come again to take you... Do you believe heaven has literal buildings that provide shelter with beds for us to sleep, kitchens and such? Do you believe our citizenship in heaven isn’t spiritual vs carnal citizenship, but by your interpretation, implying where we live? Why would we live in Heaven, with houses not needed in heaven if we reign on earth?
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Post by Natalie on Nov 4, 2019 7:55:32 GMT -6
I think heaven is very different from what many imagine. And the Bible does not give much information on heaven or eternity, so I think that's why people imagine so many different things. Me included.
When I read the descriptions in the Bible where people have visions of heaven (like in Daniel and Rev 4) I take them literally. There is a literal throne, menorah, thrones for the elders, bowls of incense, etc. This spiritual world will eventually be visible. So, our citizenship is in heaven which currently is spiritual (and would be where I go should I die today), but this reality will join the physical. We too are awaiting a city not made by hands but by God Himself. We will reign with Christ but our dwelling place is New Jerusalem. Those who inherit the earth are Israel and the "sheep" left after the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
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Post by fitz on Nov 4, 2019 8:34:50 GMT -6
I think heaven is very different from what many imagine. And the Bible does not give much information on heaven or eternity, so I think that's why people imagine so many different things. Me included. When I read the descriptions in the Bible where people have visions of heaven (like in Daniel and Rev 4) I take them literally. Me too. Streets of gold, trees bearing fruit, etc. Sounds like real physical stuff to me. Jesus ate food AFTER receiving His glorified body...so won't we? We may not need to, but I am betting we can. What of this Wedding feast? A spiritual feast for sure, but completely allegorical? I think not. Food in heaven? Yep. Jesus talked about many rooms in His father's house. New Jerusalem has proportions that can be measured. How can all this be spiritualized?
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Post by venge on Nov 4, 2019 13:11:33 GMT -6
I think heaven is very different from what many imagine. And the Bible does not give much information on heaven or eternity, so I think that's why people imagine so many different things. Me included. When I read the descriptions in the Bible where people have visions of heaven (like in Daniel and Rev 4) I take them literally. There is a literal throne, menorah, thrones for the elders, bowls of incense, etc. This spiritual world will eventually be visible. So, our citizenship is in heaven which currently is spiritual (and would be where I go should I die today), but this reality will join the physical. We too are awaiting a city not made by hands but by God Himself. We will reign with Christ but our dwelling place is New Jerusalem. Those who inherit the earth are Israel and the "sheep" left after the Time of Jacob's Trouble. fitz and Natalie, Look what Barnes says and I agree with him. “ It is here represented as "coming down from God out of heaven." This, of course, does not mean that this great city was "literally" to descend upon the earth, and to occupy any one part of the renovated world; but it is a symbolical or figurative representation, designed to show that the abode of the righteous will be splendid and glorious. The idea of a city literally descending from heaven, and being set upon the earth with such proportions - three hundred and seventy miles high Revelation 21:16, made of gold, and with single pearls for gates, and single gems for the foundations - is absurd.” The gold streets, the tree of life and the streams of living water all explain the figurative language of God’s kingdom on earth and Jerusalem as the Holy city of them. Just as we live under Babylon today yet you see no Babylon...we live under it spiritually. That is why we are called to come out of her. Not literally evacuate as she is everywhere, but spiritually leave her.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 4, 2019 16:20:25 GMT -6
Why does it have to be "absurd"? Couldn't God make a city like that? Couldn't He remake the earth to hold a city like that? To me it sounds wonderful and amazing, not absurd.
The book of Hebrews talks of Abraham looking to a city made by God. The book of Revelation reveals that city. That's how I see it.
I don't know how to take it figuratively. Because then other things have to be taken figuratively and a person could end up in a theological mess. If there is no tree of life in the new city, does that mean the one in Eden was figurative, too? What about the one of good and evil? Maybe then Adam and Eve were figurative...
I am not saying you do that, Venge. I know you are careful to study Scripture, but where do we draw the line on what is literal and what isn't? (Yes, there are many things in the Bible that we don't take literally, but those things are explained within Scripture.)
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 4, 2019 19:42:58 GMT -6
I think heaven is very different from what many imagine. And the Bible does not give much information on heaven or eternity, so I think that's why people imagine so many different things. Me included. When I read the descriptions in the Bible where people have visions of heaven (like in Daniel and Rev 4) I take them literally. Me too. Streets of gold, trees bearing fruit, etc. Sounds like real physical stuff to me. Jesus ate food AFTER receiving His glorified body...so won't we? We may not need to, but I am betting we can. What of this Wedding feast? A spiritual feast for sure, but completely allegorical? I think not. Food in heaven? Yep. Jesus talked about many rooms in His father's house. New Jerusalem has proportions that can be measured. How can all this be spiritualized? I agree Fitz. You posted what I was thinking, regarding Jesus eating and also the marriage supper of the lamb. We might not have bacon- but I'll be cooking something that tastes exactly like bacon, on my heavenly grill. What about all the millions of people who love to prepare food, and the millions more who love to eat it. The point is not that we need it to survive, but God made food for our enjoyment. What about all the people who love to sit in a cozy chair by a fireplace and read a book.
But the greater point is that the passage you mentioned, Fitz - is not poetry, or wisdom literature, nor is it apocalyptic literature, nor is it a parable.
Basic Hermeneutics 101 says that we look at the context - cultural context, historical and grammatical context and to make something symbolic when it is not warranted, is eisegesis - reading something into the text that's not there.
As Natalie stated, where does it end, if we just make things symbolic that are not -- then the cross was symbolic, the tomb symbolized isolation, the stone was symbolic for illness, etc. etc. It's a slippery slope, and one of the dangers is that people can be mistaken for what the thing symbolizes.
There are a few things we can be 100% sure about. But for most things - we take the scripture, cross reference and look what other passages say, and that's why it's called faith.
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Post by mike on Nov 4, 2019 20:46:12 GMT -6
I don't really see it the way you do D4L, Fitz and that's ok. If I eat, I eat. If we don't you won't be upset that is certain.
Why don't I see it that way (I once did)
Rev 4:8 they're not eating here
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 22:3 and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 7:9-12,14-16 No bacon eating here. The food is the Word, and there goes the elders again
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
John 6:35 - I don't think we do anything but worship and serve God in heaven. No bbq's, No China buffet, just the bread of life, being fed truth, love, righteousness
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 2:35:30 GMT -6
I don't really see it the way you do D4L, Fitz and that's ok. If I eat, I eat. If we don't you won't be upset that is certain. Why don't I see it that way (I once did) Rev 4:8 they're not eating here And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Rev 22:3 and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Rev 7:9-12,14-16 No bacon eating here. The food is the Word, and there goes the elders again After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. John 6:35 - I don't think we do anything but worship and serve God in heaven. No bbq's, No China buffet, just the bread of life, being fed truth, love, righteousness
Regarding the red phrase above.... I'd say Yes and No.
But what is worship? Do you eat in the morning and then go to church and worship?
Or do you worship, while you are eating your breakfast, while tasting the good scottish whisky in the evening, while feeling the warm breeze of air on your skin and praising God for that?
To me worship is not sth, that is separated from other seemingly "ordinary" activities like eating, drinking, walking, ...
It's all in one.
We are complex entities, created after God's image.
Meaning, we can't and IMO shouldn't separate such apparently "spiritual" activities like worship from other activities.
Everything we do, we should do with an attitude of worship and prayer and my guess is, we can do this in perfection with our changed bodies in the New Jerusalem and on the New Earth.
What we can see, feel, taste and enjoy here yet on the fallen earth, are but hints and a foretaste to what is to follow and what is being prepared for us.
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Post by venge on Nov 5, 2019 5:22:27 GMT -6
Why does it have to be "absurd"? Couldn't God make a city like that? Couldn't He remake the earth to hold a city like that? To me it sounds wonderful and amazing, not absurd. The book of Hebrews talks of Abraham looking to a city made by God. The book of Revelation reveals that city. That's how I see it. I don't know how to take it figuratively. Because then other things have to be taken figuratively and a person could end up in a theological mess. If there is no tree of life in the new city, does that mean the one in Eden was figurative, too? What about the one of good and evil? Maybe then Adam and Eve were figurative... I am not saying you do that, Venge. I know you are careful to study Scripture, but where do we draw the line on what is literal and what isn't? (Yes, there are many things in the Bible that we don't take literally, but those things are explained within Scripture.) Isn’t God the Tree of Life? Aren’t true Christians streams of living waters flowing out north, south, east and westward? Search the scripture, it’s there. Why are the streets gold, tried and removed of all impurity’s of uncleanliness? Why is the city’s foundation Christ? I know you don’t think that literal. Or that it’s built up on the prophets and apostles and living stones today (we are the living stones). Not literal. And this city will come out from heaven when Christ reigns. In it is God and in it is the tree of life. Anyone outside does not have the tree of life. The leaves of the tree heal the nations. Do you think you’re going to pluck a leaf, put it into tea and people drink it to heal themselves? Or is the leaf figurative of repentance and bringing forth fruit that they may heal themselves from their infirmities being uncleaness/wickedness. Natalie, it is tremendously beautiful what will be done. God doesn’t need science fiction. He’s going to do a real work right before our eyes in the world. Is it not a miracle when one lost sheep returns? Or a miracle that one full of evil repents? Or a miracle that those who love idols today, will cast them off as a menstruated cloth tomorrow? I can’t wait!
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2019 6:51:36 GMT -6
I suppose that is possbile @reepicheep . Something that I have contemplated a bit lately is those things written to 'men' and those written to 'men' for afterlife.
You quoted Colossians 3:17 - do you think that would apply to 'the here'? 'the hereafter'? or both? I believe that is written for men in mortal bodies, not for the raised
Another example would be Rom 14:11 which I believe only applies to those who are no longer in physical bodies. Those who are raised and/or raptured. There are other verses like this and maybe I'm spinning into a tangent (which we can move elsewhere if necessary)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 8:24:03 GMT -6
mike, I think, the quoted scripture is primarily for the 'here' in our unchanged fleshly, mortal bodies. But anyway, wouldn't it be appropriate to worship God with every 'action' whatsoever even in our raised bodies? Seems to be sort of splitting hairs... And we should not forget, that HIS word (scripture) remains. 1.Peter 1:25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. Isaiah 40,8: ..., but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 5, 2019 10:37:14 GMT -6
I don't really see it the way you do D4L, Fitz and that's ok. If I eat, I eat. If we don't you won't be upset that is certain. Why don't I see it that way (I once did) Rev 4:8 they're not eating here And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Rev 22:3 and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Rev 7:9-12,14-16 No bacon eating here. The food is the Word, and there goes the elders again After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. John 6:35 - I don't think we do anything but worship and serve God in heaven. No bbq's, No China buffet, just the bread of life, being fed truth, love, righteousness Mike, I think that on the New Earth (also called the eternal Heaven), we will have activities that will be infused with worship of the Lord. This includes things like eating or drinking. Revelation mentions that people come in and out of the New Jerusalem, and they go out into the nations, and reign over them. God will have us ruling and reigning over tribes, nations, and peoples. According to Randy Alcorn, an author and former pastor, tribe means a person’s clan or family lineage, nation means a group who shares a national identity, and people means cultural groups. So, for example, God could have me, Matthew McMillen, ruling over the McMillen tribe, the American nation, or the Anglo-American people on the New Earth. Also, venge, I think Scripture indicates that the New Earth is a physical place. I think there is a literal, physical purpose that John writes down the dimensions of the New Jerusalem. There is symbolism for the New Jerusalem, but it’s not only a symbol. It’s a literal city that serves as the capital city of the New Earth and the New Universe that God creates. If the New Jerusalem was just a symbol, John wouldn’t have included the dimensions of the city or what appears to be physical descriptions of the city. Not criticizing y’all’s views on Heaven, but just something to think about.
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2019 11:35:47 GMT -6
I understand matthew2423 - something to think about for you too. What is going on in heaven right now? what are those who have gone on before us doing today?
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 5, 2019 12:03:22 GMT -6
I understand matthew2423 - something to think about for you too. What is going on in heaven right now? what are those who have gone on before us doing today? Mike, I do think that people worship God in Heaven, and I do think that it is the primary thing that they do. But, I think that people in Heaven do various tasks for God, they have free time to do things that they want to do as part of their will to God. But, worship of God is infused in the daily activities of Heaven. I don’t think that the people of Heaven stand around the throne of God all day and all night. I think that the worship is a crucial part of the person’s activity in Heaven, whatever they are doing, whether it is only worship, eating and drinking, watching a sporting event or other entertainment, spending time with family and friends, all that stuff.
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