Post by stormyknight on Jul 11, 2019 8:21:44 GMT -6
I see your point, venge. I'm going to do some digging as I have time. But I'm thinking there must be something in Scripture that will tell us who the restrainer is. We know it's a He for sure and we know that Paul told the Thessalonians who it was.
"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.…" 1 Thess. 2:5-8
what, the one who, and, he = the restrainer
him = the man of lawlessness
it = the mystery of lawlessness
If anyone already knows the verse Paul is talking about, please save me the time. But I'm going digging.
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." John 15:12
The best interpretive option is that the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 is the Holy Spirit. There are two primary reasons for reaching this conclusion. First, the force restraining the Antichrist must be more powerful than Satan. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:9, the Antichrist will be Satan's masterpiece who will be directly controlled and empowered by Satan himself. Thus, the restrainer must be powerful enough to prevent Satan from unleashing the Antichrist onto the world scene until the proper time. Only deity possessing the attribute of omnipotence ("all power") has unlimited power. Certainly the Holy Spirit meets this criterion since He is full deity (Acts 5:3-4).
Second, the Greek participle "restrainer" is neuter in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 and masculine in verse 7. Identifying the restrainer as the Holy Spirit handles well this abrupt transition from the neuter to the masculine gender. The Greek word for Spirit is pneuma, which is a neuter noun. Moreover, in the Upper Room Discourse, Jesus identified the Holy Spirit with the masculine personal pronoun "him" or "he." For example, in John 14:17, Christ said,
"that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."
The Holy Spirit is designated by the personal pronoun "he" in other sections of the same discourse (John 15:26; 16:13-14).
Why then did Paul simply not use the words "Holy Spirit" in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7? In Scripture, it is common for the Holy Spirit to be identified by a particular ministry that He provides. In John 14:17, the Holy Spirit is identified by His ministry of truth. In John 14:26, He is identified by His ministry as a helper. In Romans 8:2, He is identified by His ministry of providing spiritual life. The Holy Spirit has a role in restraining evil in the world (Gen. 6:3). Thus, in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, Paul similarly points out the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit without expressly mentioning the specific name "Holy Spirit."
Security Threat Was Reason for Pence's NH Cancellation: Officials
President Donald Trump told reporters Friday that there was a "very interesting problem that they had in New Hampshire, but I can’t tell you about it"
Salem Police don't know what threat to VP was
SALEM, N.H. — Salem police remain unaware of a supposed local threat to Vice President Mike Pence's planned visit to town last Tuesday.
After days of uncertainty about the cancellation, President Donald Trump on Friday told reporters in Washington there was “a very interesting problem that they had in New Hampshire, but I can’t tell you about it,” he said. “There was a problem up there, and I won’t go into what the problem was, but you’ll see in about a week or two."
davewatchman , said “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
I don't think the 10 are at the start, nor in the mid point. Because they operate for one hour, one "hora", Until God's Word is fulfilled.
Fulfillment comes at the end. The final hour. Which because of that word "hora", probably is not a literal 60 minutes.
Amen on the "probably is not a literal 60 minutes" . Also, is not the last kingdom before the Stone Kingdom made up of clay and iron? so it sounds to me we should keep our eyes on the status of FAITH around the world. This verse dave put forth reads to me that there is not a literal kingdom for these 10 kings because they merely act as kings so is a kingdomless situation. Makes sense to me because the beast (system) is not something that can be observed per se. Remember we are seeing the SPIRITUAL explanation of what is going on. The "hour" not a physical hour but a "short time" … and recall those who stood in front of Jesus the first time and did not recognize the TIME of their visitation.
Same thing is playing out right now. Im with dave on this one..
I'm with Dave on this one too.
But i'm biased.
For now anyway.
Thanks for the kind words Barb.
It sounds like a good idea to remember the clay and the iron kingdoms. The many nations and peoples and tongues. Diverse earthquakes for diverse nations in diverse places. We sure did fill up the world.
And i think it's a good idea to consider the possibility of a spiritual explanation. It might pay to be at least cognizant to the possible probability of the spiritual intertwining itself with the literal. As i think literal fire will fall from heaven that is caused by a spiritual beast with two horns like a Lamb, but speaks like a Dragon.
And never forget "those who stood in front of Jesus the first time and did not recognize the TIME of their visitation. I agree. Similar to how it is now. Where preconceptions are put on a pedestal replacing the truth that stood before them. The same thing might be playing out right now again, but on a much bigger scale. And with the Kingdom of God in our midst once again.
Imagine that poor pharisee standing right in front of Jesus. And Jesus telling him that the Kingdom of God was in his midst. It's like He was telling him, the Kingdom of God is standing right in front of you.
"nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
It was so close that the pharisee could reach out and touch the Kingdom, looking right into His eyes. Talk about a gnashing of the teeth moment for that pharisee when they replay that one. And imagine we might be at that point again where He's right at the door, and the Kingdom of God is at hand again.
I was looking at this thread.
UNSEALED DISCUSSION BOARD Apologetics & Bible The wind bloweth where it will
But i was thinking about how different my take on the Kingdom was. Where it is and what it will be like and how we might be and what we will do. I don't think i can say without causing consternation. It would be like fingernails on the chalk board deal. I think it's going to be different from what the other people on that thread think. Way different. We might not have to go Home, but we can't stay here. Heaven must receive HIM, until the time comes to restore ALL things.
Behold, He makes ALL things new. Not until Revelation 21.
"For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets. - NLT
"And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true. - Revelation 21.
Heaven is a physical place. Heaven is not very far away. At the seventh trumpet, God's Temple will be opened. The Ark of His Covenant will be visible to the human eye here on Earth. New Jerusalem is cloaked in an orbit abound Earth. It took Gabriel 3.5 minutes to get here at Daniel's location travelling in swift flight.
I think God did the big bang so that we can interact in the physical universe. Remember those Legion demons, we are Legion, we are many.
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.”
Those guys were spirit beings from the spirit world. But remember how in Luke it says that they begged Jesus REPEATEDLY not to be put back into the abyss. They would rather go into a herd of pigs than to be disembodied spirits floating around in a formless void.
"And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
"A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission.
In New Jerusalem, the Father's House, i would expect to be walking down a physical street made of literal gold, walking though a physical gate made of real pearl, shaking many physical hands, riding a physical horse and eating some of my Mom's stuffed green peppers.
My mouth is watering already at the thought of it.
"I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom."
fitz: even though he was just doing his job...which is not to be a shining example of a Christian CEO in the business world, though that's a noble pursuit, his main focus should be making money for his bosses.
Dec 5, 2019 14:59:10 GMT -6
fitz: Else he's a bad employee...which isn't very Christlike either.
Dec 5, 2019 15:00:12 GMT -6
EnochWalked: fitz: I think if a CEO owns a corporation, he can pay himself whatever salary he wants from the company's money, and then anonymously donate that. I suppose that move wouldn't be very popular with the employees, or make the company very competitive.
Dec 5, 2019 15:41:33 GMT -6
sesquipedalian: It really is disappointing to see two Christians trying to justify abandoning moral principles for the sake of profits and worldly favor. Never mind the fact that Chick-Fil-A already had sizeable profits and tremendous loyalty from their customers.
Dec 5, 2019 17:17:51 GMT -6
mike: Weighing in again, I'm disappointed. In this world there aren't too many righteous stories to be "proud" of. This was but is no more. That's the part that caused my reaction. If I boycott them I have to boycott everything
Dec 5, 2019 21:41:56 GMT -6
Bora: They had it and then they were brow-beat and lost it. To bad they caved as they had my admiration but now no. They are simply the strong that backed down in the heat of battle.
Dec 6, 2019 8:12:51 GMT -6
Joecool: Since God was always all-knowing, that means He not only knew us but He was thinking about us before the foundations of the world
Dec 6, 2019 10:17:13 GMT -6
Joecool: No sense in worrying about the battles since God is Always with us.
Dec 6, 2019 10:17:59 GMT -6
EnochWalked: sesquip: I don't think I was trying to justify "abandoning moral principles" and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to show empathy for Christian company owners who choose to avoid controversy in order to keep their business operating.
Dec 6, 2019 16:15:01 GMT -6
EnochWalked: If the owner of Chick-fil-A had been motivated only by personal greed, or avoiding personal embarrassment in the eyes of the secular world (as your first link suggests, without evidence) then I would not justify that, but I don't know his heart (God does).
Dec 6, 2019 16:18:28 GMT -6
EnochWalked: The company is still giving to charities concerned with "education, hunger, and homelessness.", which still seems moral to me, and I wouldn't feel comfortable condemning them for that. ("He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" Jn 8:7)
Dec 6, 2019 16:23:37 GMT -6
reepicheep: Who cares about the HoR? What matters is the promise of God. Sad anyway, that the US is putting themselves under the curse.
Dec 7, 2019 11:44:34 GMT -6
EnochWalked: bernie: Thanks for the link. This is an interesting time of year. On December 6, 2017, Trump announced US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and December 9, 1949 was when the UN passed resolution 303 stating Jerusalem doesn't belong to Israel.
Dec 7, 2019 18:15:46 GMT -6