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Post by unravelations on Apr 20, 2019 22:55:37 GMT -6
Hi brothers and sisters, I've got some new information to share, concerning the possible timing of the rapture. I think this could be of big importance regarding the way we look at Matthew 24:34's generation and therefore the possible timing of the rapture. Article can be found below. God bless! :-) unravelations.weebly.com/70-years.html
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Post by venge on Apr 21, 2019 12:56:30 GMT -6
Hi brothers and sisters, I've got some new information to share, concerning the possible timing of the rapture. I think this could be of big importance regarding the way we look at Matthew 24:34's generation and therefore the possible timing of the rapture. Article can be found below. God bless! :-) unravelations.weebly.com/70-years.htmlunravelations, Appreciate your post but it would be better if you post here then lead us to another site. Feel free to post your writings here so others may contribute to the subject. I looked at it (your site) and will copy a part of your conclusion below: 1. I don't believe we can guess the date. Only the father knows. 2. The rapture can happen at ANY time? I am pretty sure the rapture is a specific time in history. My own opinion is the 7th trumpet. That would place it within a pretty specific timeline of events. 3. A temple does not have to be built. You are implying that scripture says it has to. Some take it that way, some do not. The temple was destroyed and in 3 days Christ built it back up in the resurrection. 4. Please provide scripture that a "literal Babylon will be rebuilt". 5. The rapture has no prerequisties? Let me point you to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Verse 1 = Rapture Verse 3 = Prerequisites for rapture in verse 1. The day that shall not come is the day of verse 1, the day of Christ to rapture us. Prerequisite 1 = a falling away Prerequisite 2 = man of sin revealed That is 2 very large prerequisites.
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Post by venge on Apr 22, 2019 10:12:33 GMT -6
unravelations, Appreciate your post but it would be better if you post here then lead us to another site. Feel free to post your writings here so others may contribute to the subject. I looked at it (your site) and will copy a part of your conclusion below: 1. I don't believe we can guess the date. Only the father knows. 2. The rapture can happen at ANY time? I am pretty sure the rapture is a specific time in history. My own opinion is the 7th trumpet. That would place it within a pretty specific timeline of events. 3. A temple does not have to be built. You are implying that scripture says it has to. Some take it that way, some do not. The temple was destroyed and in 3 days Christ built it back up in the resurrection. 4. Please provide scripture that a "literal Babylon will be rebuilt". 5. The rapture has no prerequisties? Let me point you to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Verse 1 = Rapture Verse 3 = Prerequisites for rapture in verse 1. The day that shall not come is the day of verse 1, the day of Christ to rapture us. Prerequisite 1 = a falling away Prerequisite 2 = man of sin revealed That is 2 very large prerequisites. I read the page he posted. We're told nobody knows the day or hour. He's picking a year. Because I'm post-trib, I think we will know when the season of the gathering approaches.
You're correct about the seventh and last trump. We must endure the first six trumpets before we're gathered.
You're also correct that a temple doesn't need rebuilding. I think we disagree on the literal and figurative use of the word 'temple.' You seem to always interpret it figuratively, correct?
You're also correct about some of the prerequisites to the rapture. And I would like to point out a few others and explain 'this generation.'
'This generation' is likened to the budding of a fig tree,
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
How do we know a fig tree is budding? We SEE the buds turn into leaves! The generation Jesus is talking about is the one that SEES all the events he mentioned PASS between verses 3-33. I don't think 1948 has anything to do with this.
Most Christians believe the 'falling away' is a defection from truth, but the passage is clear that it has nothing to do with Christianity or the Church. It's an event that brings on the man of sin. ______________________________________________________________________ UR said,I'm not sure that's what Paul was inferring. He also said WE shall not all sleep. His main objective was that "we shall all be changed."
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Morning Jamie, You had asked: I believe that the multiple examples given to us in OT scripture demonstrate that the temple is not literal. However, I recognize many believe it is literal and needed. My argument is thus: A literal temple may be built, that is possible, but is it needed to fulfil prophecy? I don't believe it is. The AC demonstrating his pride and arrogance lifting up himself like a cedar without bounds to the clouds of heaven is thru his own exhortation is as if he is sitting in the temple of God proclaiming himself that he is God. But as God himself says in 2 sources, you are just a man and not God and I will bring you back down to earth (because he lifted himself up to heaven). He does this multiple times all with Kings. He humbles the proud and brings them low. You stated: That is because apostasia defines it as such. It doesnt have to mean a full all out defenction of all Christianity. I think Churches will be here but people chisel away at the true word of God and add things contrary to God's word. They are defecting from the true religion as Strong's points out. I understand the fig tree, and seeing its leaves change as being spiritually awake. In ref back to the apostasia, I view it as such: The falling away as it is called is the culmination of attacks on Christians, killing of Christians, less support from Christians, which leads to a ceasing of the daily and oblation in the proximity to the middle. I take the daily sacrificeand the oblation to not refer to the Jews but to Christians. Revelation was written for us, not them. Christ is the new law and under him a daily and oblation is not what the Jews did. He is the Bread of Life, he is the Drink offering poured out. Are we not to present out bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto the Lord? I think when we see all these things Jamie, it will really make true believers (Church of Philadelphia) stand out; as opposed to people who take the title of Christian (the other Churches) who are either cast into utter darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Bowls) or they do repent as Christ said in the opening chapters of Revelation and they are saved. But we have a defection from the truth now. And this is only 1 example. How about another? Trump wants to tax our Allies in order to force them to hurt Iran and bring their oil down to zero. What happened to love thy neighbor as thyself? Why are we wanting to hurt our allies? Are we to love or are we to put a heavy yoke on our neighbors? Is this Christian conduct? Sigh, Christians today applauding this type pf conduct is sad. They forget the word of the Lord. We are not to hurt others but to love and have peace. We are turning into a nation of Christians Pharisees.
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Post by rt on Apr 22, 2019 18:06:01 GMT -6
Hi brothers and sisters, I've got some new information to share, concerning the possible timing of the rapture. I think this could be of big importance regarding the way we look at Matthew 24:34's generation and therefore the possible timing of the rapture. Article can be found below. God bless! :-) unravelations.weebly.com/70-years.htmlLet's look at the passage in question: First of all we are told that this is a parable, which means that it is a means of demonstrating a spiritual truth using a word picture to aid in understanding. We have a fig tree, in particular a tree that is beginning to put forth leaves, it is a tree in spring. The object lesson is that one knows that summer follows spring, when the leaves of the tree begin to sprout, we know summer is not far off. In the same way that we know that the signs of a spring tree help us to know summer is near, we also know that when the signs mentioned earlier in the passage come to pass, we know that Christ's visible return to earth is also near. Now we also have as part of the parable the statement that "this generation will not come to pass away until all these things take place". The question everyone has is what generation is the parable talking about? The plain reading of the text would point back to the generation that is alive on earth when the signs come to pass. Those people who inhabit the earth and are alive to see the fulfillment of the signs will have members of their generation who will live through it to see Christ's return to earth. Personally I believe these will be of the tribes of Israel who will be restored in their relationship with God through the events that take place. There are many who want to point to the political rebirth of Israel as a nation being indicated by the rebirth of the spring fig tree. However that is not even the point of the passage. the point is the signs themselves, and the return of Christ to reign over the earth, not the fig tree. I would also venture to speculate that if the fig tree represents a rebirth of Israel, it is not a political one in view, but rather a spiritual one. Which is spoken of throughout the old testament prophets. This passage isn't pointing to the rapture at all, but rather to Christ's return: So the timing of the rapture cannot be deduced from the passage, however many have speculated based on their own interpretations, but the passage says more than once, three times in fact, that we cannot know the day or hour, of our Lord's return. Whatever "return" you might think the passage is talking about, the rapture, or the visible return that all on earth will see. We cannot know the day ahead of the fulfillment of the signs. That is the point of the parable.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 22, 2019 18:59:01 GMT -6
Hi brothers and sisters, I've got some new information to share, concerning the possible timing of the rapture. I think this could be of big importance regarding the way we look at Matthew 24:34's generation and therefore the possible timing of the rapture. Article can be found below. God bless! :-) unravelations.weebly.com/70-years.htmlLet's look at the passage in question: First of all we are told that this is a parable, which means that it is a means of demonstrating a spiritual truth using a word picture to aid in understanding. We have a fig tree, in particular a tree that is beginning to put forth leaves, it is a tree in spring. The object lesson is that one knows that summer follows spring, when the leaves of the tree begin to sprout, we know summer is not far off. In the same way that we know that the sings of a spring tree help us to know summer is near, we also know that when the signs mentioned earlier in the passage come to pass, we know that Christ's visible return to earth is also near. Now we also have as part of the parable the statement that "this generation will not come to pass away until all these things take place". The question everyone has is what generation is the parable talking about? The plain reading of the text would point back to the generation that is alive on earth when the signs come to pass. Those people who inhabit the earth and are alive to see the fulfillment of the signs will have members of their generation who will live through it to see Christ's return to earth. Personally I believe these will be of the tribes of Israel who will be restored in their relationship with God through the events that take place. There are many who want to point to the political rebirth of Israel as a nation being indicated by the rebirth of the spring fig tree. However that is not even the point of the passage. the point is the signs themselves, and the return of Christ to reign over the earth, not the fig tree. I would also venture to speculate that if the fig tree represents a rebirth of Israel, it is not a political one in view, but rather a spiritual one. Which is spoken of throughout the old testament prophets. This passage isn't pointing to the rapture at all, but rather to Christ's return: So the timing of the rapture cannot be deduced from the passage, however many have speculated based on their own interpretations, but the passage says more than once, three times in fact, that we cannot know the day or hour, of our Lord's return. Whatever "return" you might think the passage is talking about, the rapture, or the visible return that all on earth will see. We cannot know the day ahead of the fulfillment of the signs. That is the point of the parable. Hi rt. The first question that came to my mind is When are figs ripe? Are we to assume from the parable that the fruit is ripe when spring turns into summer? The parable indicates that some of the fig tree are accepting the gospel message in the spring; however, at the beginning of the summer then the tree is fully leafed. Thus, the springtime is where Judah begins to accept the gospel message and the beginning of summer is where they accept Lord Jesus completely. Thus the tree has produced fruit from its original branches at the beginning of summertime. As I recall the Jews do not accept Christ fully until he returns. Thus, it would be as you said, the parable points to the return of the Savior when the fruit of Judah is fully ripe in accepting Lord Jesus. Thus, when Judah begins to accept Lord Jesus then his return is very close. Thus, when the two witnesses and their group converts the Jews then Christ's return follows. These two should be on the scene shortly. Perhaps their appearance it the trigger to the parable that spring has arrived when the Jews begin to convert. Post Script: The two witnesses will be breaking local law just a Christ broke the law of his day. Because of that, these two will be scoured in the news. So we should be looking for two that appear to be in rebellion in Judah. As you may know, it is illegal to conduct missionary work in the nation state of Israel. Since these two will be proselyting for Christ, then they will be despised by the Jews.
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Post by unravelations on Apr 22, 2019 22:18:42 GMT -6
Hey guys (and gals Thanks for the feedback :-) I had the impression most people on here are pretribbers, so that's the ambience in the article. It's not very apolegetic concerning the how and why of a pre-trib rapture. I did that too, in an e-book I called "49 Reasons For A Pre-Trib Rapture", in Dutch though. Feel free to download and use a translation tool to get the flavour of it. I'm not going to debate the pre-trib rapture extensively here, other than just ask the question: "Why do you think God will let a christian go through the wrath?" :-) See 1 Thess. 5:9, Romand 5:9, etc. Anyway, I never said Matthew 24 is about the rapture. I believe it's completely about the tribulation. Thus I concluded that therefore, when we can already see the tribulation shaping a bit, we know that the rapture is even nearer. I also never said I am certain of any date. I'm just speculating. Providing scripture of a literal rebuilt Babylon? It's in the hyperlink, right there. Again, this is speculation, so I let dr. Missler explain it himself. And yes, the rapture has no prerequisites, because if it did; we could 'know the day or the hour' Which doesn't invalidate my own thesis, because I never claim to actually _do_ know the day or hour. 1 Thess. 2:3-4 is not at all talking about a big apostacy in the way we think of an apostasia. Dr. Woods will make that clear, if you'll allow him to explain that in the Greek This will be a first answer to some of the critical questions you guys had. Maybe I will react again later today as I have to go now. Again, thanks for taking the effort to read and not taking things for granted but be good Bereans God bless!
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Post by fitz on Apr 23, 2019 6:32:08 GMT -6
Hey guys (and gals Thanks for the feedback :-) I had the impression most people on here are pretribbers, so that's the ambience in the article. It's not very apolegetic concerning the how and why of a pre-trib rapture. I did that too, in an e-book I called "49 Reasons For A Pre-Trib Rapture", in Dutch though. Feel free to download and use a translation tool to get the flavour of it. I'm not going to debate the pre-trib rapture extensively here, other than just ask the question: "Why do you think God will let a christian go through the wrath?" :-) See 1 Thess. 5:9, Romand 5:9, etc. Anyway, I never said Matthew 24 is about the rapture. I believe it's completely about the tribulation. Thus I concluded that therefore, when we can already see the tribulation shaping a bit, we know that the rapture is even nearer. I also never said I am certain of any date. I'm just speculating. Providing scripture of a literal rebuilt Babylon? It's in the hyperlink, right there. Again, this is speculation, so I let dr. Missler explain it himself. And yes, the rapture has no prerequisites, because if it did; we could 'know the day or the hour' Which doesn't invalidate my own thesis, because I never claim to actually _do_ know the day or hour. 1 Thess. 2:3-4 is not at all talking about a big apostacy in the way we think of an apostasia. Dr. Woods will make that clear, if you'll allow him to explain that in the Greek This will be a first answer to some of the critical questions you guys had. Maybe I will react again later today as I have to go now. Again, thanks for taking the effort to read and not taking things for granted but be good Bereans God bless! First of all, in response to the video, 'apostasia' doesn't refer to a physical departure. The word means to forsake. Acts 21:21 is the only other place the word apostasia is used and the only place we can go to understand it. The words "fall away, draw away, or fallen away" are NOT the same word as apostasia. We are told throughout the scriptures that we are to endure tribulation.In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it? If he didn't remove Noah from the flood, he won't remove people from tribulation. Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it? If He didn't remove Daniel from the Lions den, he won't remove people from tribulation. Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it? If He didn't remove them from the fiery furnace, He won't remove people from tribulation. Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them? If He didn't remove Job from his trials, He won't remove Christians from them either. Why do you think He would remove anyone from tribulation? Not one verse properly interpreted implies such a thing! Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my command to persevere , I shall also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth, to test those who dwell on earth." The context of the passage has nothing to do with a rapture. The word KEEP doesn't imply a removal from but to be protected through. The word KEEP implies to take care of not remove from. The promise is not to remove or keep believers out of the trial, but to preserve and protect them through the hour of trial. There are other examples where God's people are protected through trial and judgment. Yes there are prerequisites. Paul said the Man of sin must first be revealed. Jesus also said the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation. And the dead must rise first. This is a literal day and hour. When the tribulation comes we will likely know the approximate time of the Lord's return. That's the reason for the seals and the many signs in Mathew and the Revelation. We will know the season! When the Lord returns at the parousia, that's when the harpazo thake place. Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory......And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Your order of events seems a bit off, if I may say so. 2 Thessalonians 2 starting at verse 2 2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: [g]for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that [h]that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. 4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. 1. Verse 3 - "that day" = the day of Christ or the Day of the Lord will not come until the following happens... 2. A departing must come first. Why would you assume this is talking about apostasy in the church when contextually that makes no sense. Paul is speaking words of encouragement and reminding them of what he had previously taught them regarding the coming of the Lord. The church has been in a apostasy for 2000 years. What makes you think the present day apostasy we see ids is any different than the apostasy Paul saw in his day? Let's just take the works for what they actually say, in context. 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."Yep, we are currently standing on the earth, but soon we will leave, depart, and will be standing on clouds. 3. Now the man of sin must be revealed before "that day". However, the "restrainer" must be taken out of the way first. That restrainer = the Holy Spirit filled church. 4. Order of events = Departure (rapture) - Man of sin revealed - Day of the Lord Furthermore, we are promised tribulation in this life, but we are not promised suffering during THE tribulation. God is in control of all things. The idea that "Satan's wrath" is the preeminent force behind the tribulation period and not the plan of God being fulfilled is stretching. Matthew 24:21-22 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world to this time, nor shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Why would God allow his church to suffer during this time? The church has always suffered persecution, but, out of all the believers who have ever lived over the past 2000 years, would God single out the small number of living believers for the special honor of enduring the worst time of God's judgement ever? I mean, what about the Christians that lived 200, 1000, 2000 years ago and suffered no such persecution? But you are saying that all Christians currently living on the earth will go through this to "purify" us. What about my grampa's purification? He died over 10 years ago believing in Jesus. Never suffered any kind of persecution for his faith. Wherefore comes his purification? I'll tell you the answer...Christ is enough. We don't have to suffer through the tribulation to prove our worth, Jesus is our worth, and our righteousness, and He has washed us clean. We are purified in His sight, because of what He has done, not what we can do. The church serves no purpose being here during the tribulation. God will use the 144,000, the two witnesses and His angels to declare the gospel during this time. Many will come to Christ just minutes after the church is raptured. Many will understand what has happened and will fall on their faces. Talk about a revival! Enoch...walked with God..."and he was not, for God took him"...raptured! Lot...completely removed from the destruction. Elijah...a picture of the rapture Two witnesses ...resurrected and raptured 144,000 raptured My .02
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 23, 2019 6:32:32 GMT -6
"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Matt. 24:27
"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day." Luke 17:24
"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:" Malachi 3:2
I am of the mind that in Matthew 24:32, Jesus is talking about His return, not necessarily just the rapture. Or why, in verse 44 would he say:
"For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect."
UNLESS this all happens simultaneously.
He warned us, those who have an ear, His Church, so that we would see the fig tree 'budding'. So that we could prepare;
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the others their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. " vs. 45-47
Noah entered the Ark a week before the flood waters came? That's nothing in God's time. One tick of the clock.
(can you imagine the stress of that week? Of the faith it took to wait just one week?)
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Post by mike on Apr 23, 2019 6:48:48 GMT -6
fitz said: talk about tribulation! Those new saints will certainly experience some of if their flesh can withstand. I do not envy those here, however I do know my loving God is quite generous in mercy and has a plan we do not understand (yet). Maranatha
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 23, 2019 7:07:58 GMT -6
I was once of the mind that the rapture would happen and then all hell would break loose for 7 years. I don't know anymore. I'm leaning toward it all happening at once. Maybe the tribulation/trumpets/bowls/etc. is for only a week? Idk. I'll wait and see.
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Post by mike on Apr 23, 2019 13:55:14 GMT -6
Jamie, we differ in our viewpoint of end time prophecy. I respect your view and don't rule it out. I'm ok with that. I don't need to fully know what is coming and how it plays out, only that I will trust in Him regardless.
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