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Post by venge on Apr 2, 2019 9:54:37 GMT -6
Thank you, KJ for pointing that out. Different people would answer the "saved from" in different ways. Yes, I have been leaning more toward Christian conditionalism, also, for much of the same reason that you also have a problem with eternal torment. I also think that the Bible teaches that God draws all men, which is why they are responsible for their eternal destination; but I think that would be a topic for another thread. So, as we are using discernment here, what would be a good biblical answer? We are saved from the wrath of God? We are saved from an eternal life apart from Him? We are saved from the consequences of our sins (although that seems a bit vague)? All three of those things?
(Not a hijack at all, but a chance to practice)
You guys just gave me a great idea. I finished some writing at home about some projects I wanted to work on like the trumpets. I have not studied hell and eternal torment. Think I’m gonna start to research that. Just wanted to say thank you!! 😎
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Post by Natalie on Apr 2, 2019 9:56:32 GMT -6
So, changing the topic a bit...when we practice discernment and we run across someone who is teaching false things, then what? Obviously, we avoid them. But is it ok to name names of people who claim the title "Christian" yet preach things contrary to the Word?
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Post by kjs on Apr 2, 2019 10:48:36 GMT -6
So, changing the topic a bit...when we practice discernment and we run across someone who is teaching false things, then what? Obviously, we avoid them. But is it ok to name names of people who claim the title "Christian" yet preach things contrary to the Word? I personally feel that it is Never OK (or Right) to Name “Names” in the sense that Someone is or is not a Christian. Nor to down grade a person based upon some characteristics of theirs or their belief system.
However, (in my mind) it is perfectly alright to say so and so says this; or their interpretation of that scripture is this….
AND that saying or scripture interpretation is wrong because of X, Y and Z (and X, Y and Z – should be straight forward scriptures that show in plain everyday language of why the mentioned person is wrong in the saying or interpretation.) You see – saying someone is or is not a Christian is VERY Difficult (should I say impossible) because we do NOT SEE THE HEART.
While we might see some “spiritual fruit” – there is NO Guarantee that that “FRUIT” is not just a result of that person’s personality (some people are “GIVERS” and always are helping those in need).
By the same token someone’s “spiritual fruit” may be the unseen kind – where it is not even revealed until the end….
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Post by venge on Apr 2, 2019 10:57:55 GMT -6
So, changing the topic a bit...when we practice discernment and we run across someone who is teaching false things, then what? Obviously, we avoid them. But is it ok to name names of people who claim the title "Christian" yet preach things contrary to the Word? I don’t know that you avoid them. You can have dialogue with them openly and show them their falsehood. Christ said that no poison would hurt you. I wouldn’t eat their bread but I would be bold against them. All while being humble and kind. Christ preached boldly to those against him. He went to great lengths to show them the err of their way. He even challenged them in their hearts. That’s how we should be modeled after Christ. Not disrespectful. Loving with affection wanting all to know truth. It’s is only when they come to hurt you that he says shake the dust off your feet and move on. I believe it was Polycarp who met a false teacher in Rome and stood against him calling him a devil. Even those whose work is like the Nicolatians. I would pray for them. Love them. But be careful. They sow seeds of cocktrice eggs. They weave spider webs.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 2, 2019 11:16:41 GMT -6
Thanks, venge. Maybe I should have worded it more as "We should avoid sitting under their teaching" which is more inline with what I meant.
KJ, yes, I am speaking more of calling out what they are teaching then saying they aren't Christian. Although, at times I think we can do that. Would a church that rejects the deity of Christ still be a Christian church?
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Post by kjs on Apr 2, 2019 11:36:23 GMT -6
Thanks, venge. Maybe I should have worded it more as "We should avoid sitting under their teaching" which is more inline with what I meant.
KJ, yes, I am speaking more of calling out what they are teaching then saying they aren't Christian. Although, at times I think we can do that. Would a church that rejects the deity of Christ still be a Christian church?
You are correct -- if someone says that Jesus Christ was(is) not the Son of God (or deity) -- than of course you can point out such a belief makes them a Non-Christian.
Same for any of the Key doctrines
1) Suffered and died on Cross 2) Was Dead and Buried 3) Was Raised the Third Day
"THEY" do not have these ........ they are not Christian........
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 2, 2019 11:42:27 GMT -6
I can't find it at the moment(I'm supposed to be working...), but isn't there scripture that tells that if you have something against your brother/sister, that you should bring it up to them, and if they don't accept your correction then you should bring a brother/sister and confront them again, then if they still don't accept...?
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Post by mike on Apr 2, 2019 11:49:19 GMT -6
I can't find it at the moment(I'm supposed to be working...), but isn't there scripture that tells that if you have something against your brother/sister, that you should bring it up to them, and if they don't accept your correction then you should bring a brother/sister and confront them again, then if they still don't accept...? Matt 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 2, 2019 11:53:09 GMT -6
thanks, mike! (on mobile, no less!) So this doesn't pertain to a pastor teaching wrong teaching. sorry. Or would this apply here as well?
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Post by fitz on Apr 2, 2019 12:05:31 GMT -6
thanks, mike! (on mobile, no less!) So this doesn't pertain to a pastor teaching wrong teaching. sorry. Or would this apply here as well? This certainly DOES apply to a pastor. A pastor is just another brother in Christ. Not special or above us.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 2, 2019 13:30:00 GMT -6
I see two situations presented here. There is False teaching of who Jesus/God is, and then there is misleading teachings of the purpose/plan of Jesus. Misleading someone through misinterpretation is one thing, not understanding who the Trinity is is another, like teaching Jesus was not a virgin birth of God-incarnate.
So big question: is teaching when in error of interpretation of His Word make one a false teacher? Is it equal in error with one who denies the identity of God? Can they both be equal in their destructiveness?
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Post by mike on Apr 2, 2019 13:51:12 GMT -6
I see two situations presented here. There is False teaching of who Jesus/God is, and then there is misleading teachings of the purpose/plan of Jesus. Misleading someone through misinterpretation is one thing, not understanding who the Trinity is is another, like teaching Jesus was not a virgin birth of God-incarnate. So big question: is teaching when in error of interpretation of His Word make one a false teacher? Is it equal in error with one who denies the identity of God? Can they both be equal in their destructiveness? I don't have much time expound on this thought but in my experience I would consider a false teaching to be something that one interprets scripture in error and believes what is being taught is clear in the word. Does that make the person a false teacher or someone with incomplete understanding of the topic and so convinced of such, not willing to listen to dissent? For example - I was taught that 'blind obedience' to our pastors is required quoting the following: Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Then what if they are wrong or how about lying? What do we do? Again I was taught that "to obey is better than sacrifice" 1 Sam 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
These among other verses were often cited in order to maintain the vision of the pastor and harmony amongst the group. But is this the right teaching? I know my answer, do you? (not specifically you BSG)
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Post by Natalie on Apr 2, 2019 13:51:53 GMT -6
Good questions, BSG!
If you are teaching false teachings are you automatically a false teacher?
Teaching false things about who Jesus/God is gets you a wrong god and a wrong gospel. But wouldn't teaching errors about Jesus's purpose also get you another gospel?
For example, what they call the prosperity gospel...They may preach that Jesus died for sinners but the results then is that He wants you to have your best life now. He wants you healthy and wealthy. The gospel gets twisted and Scripture misinterpreted.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 2, 2019 14:11:08 GMT -6
I think Mike makes a good point. I think that a person can have good intentions but still be teaching something falsely. Hopefully, someone comes along and lovingly shows them their error in interpretation. (I think if they are truly seeking after God then He will find a way to correct them.) If they continue in their error and continue to teach false doctrine then, in my opinion, they have become a false teacher. We all have areas we don't understand completely and probably things we may misinterpret, but once corrected we should abandon what is incorrect. I think we also need to acknowledge when Scripture may allow for more than one interpretation. Being here at Unsealed we see that in the different views people have on the rapture. Not everyone can be right on where the rapture fits in. But there are things that do not allow for more than one interpretation. But I believe there are some out there who continue in falsehoods because it brings them financial gain. But I also don't think we can know a man's heart and judge that unless that person would vocalize it.
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Post by mike on Apr 2, 2019 14:20:27 GMT -6
Heres an example that comes to mind about the topic. The rapture and pre, mid, (pre-wrath) and post viewpoints. Is anyone teaching any of these a false teacher? I think not because we just dont know the right answer. So we are to study these on our own, being persuaded by the Holy Spirit, BUT even then we should remain open to hear other aspects. The minute any of think we have GOD figured out completely we are in trouble.
I'd say the only thing to be dogmatic about is Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day. - thats about it. Everything else is written for instructional living
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