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Post by ranger007 on Mar 30, 2019 10:50:11 GMT -6
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Post by ranger007 on Mar 30, 2019 11:03:58 GMT -6
Dear Natalie, This post was an excerpt from the book "A Commonsense Guide To Fasting, by Kenneth E. Hagan". Many take this scripture out of context, to warrant a 40 day fast. I am not saying I don't believe Jesus did in fact fast, but He was ministered by Angels. It does not say He was fed, or even partook of water. The point of the whole series, was to clear up many misconceptions about fasting. Please read the whole series to get the benefit in context. Many have gone into fasting, without proper knowledge or purpose. Then fasting turns out to be works, and not for the reasons for the practice. No where in scripture, is the Church told, or encouraged to fast. If everyone is doing it, because your Pastor of others told you to, it fails to be a private thing. The reason for fasting if directed by God, is to put the flesh under and for us to become sensitive to the Holy Spirit. We want our efforts to be affective, not just a time for us to go hungry. I also pointed out the health concerns of total fasting. Thanks for your comments, I pray this response was helpful. CHRIS
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Post by Natalie on Mar 30, 2019 11:24:08 GMT -6
ranger- not sure why you addressed your reply to me, davewatchman was the one who asked.
Kenneth Hagin is a false teacher. He's the father of the Word of Faith movement that has produced people like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and Benny Hinn. I'd stay away from him. I agree that you are right, that people do take it out of context to warrant a fast. Just like people have used the way Daniel and his friends ate in order to write diet books. But Dave is correct. Jesus did fast for 40 days; the angels didn't minister to Him until after.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 30, 2019 11:35:10 GMT -6
For context and discussion on Elijah: 1 Kings 19:5-8 And he [Elijah] lay down and slept under a broom tree. And behold, an angel touched him and said to him, "Arise and eat." And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank and lay down again. And the angel of the Lord came again a second time and touched him and said, "Arise and eat, for the journey is too great for you." And he arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mount of God. Sounds like to me that the angel prepared him food twice (a cake baked on hot stones) and then on the strength of those two meals he went forty days and forty nights until he came to Horeb. It doesn't sound like the angel kept returning to him on the journey. It sounds like a 40 day fast to me. What do you think?
ETA: I have not been at a church where they wanted to do a 40 day fast, but I am assuming that it wasn't a complete fast from all food and water. That would kill a person. You probably addressed that, but I will admit that I have not been able to keep up on your posts. But, maybe that is the point of your blog post, that a person without supernatural help cannot completely fast for 40 days. Elijah was clearly sustained by God for those 40 days. Just like Moses on the mountain and Jesus in the wilderness (sustained but still knowing hunger). They were able to somehow go 40 days without food and water. I just think that a literal interpretation of Scripture shows they fasted for 40 days. It was a real fast just with some supernatural circumstances. (Sorry, I keep coming back to edit my post, but thanks for giving me something to ponder today. )
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 30, 2019 12:09:42 GMT -6
No where in scripture, is the Church told, or encouraged to fast. And Jesus said to them, and then they will fast.Mark 2:18–22; Luke 5:33–39 Then the disciples of John came to Him, saying, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not fast?” And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast. Acts 13:1–3 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. - Paul (Corinthians) (Peaceful Sabbath)
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Post by davewatchman on Mar 30, 2019 16:44:30 GMT -6
ranger- not sure why you addressed your reply to me, davewatchman was the one who asked.
Kenneth Hagin is a false teacher. He's the father of the Word of Faith movement that has produced people like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and Benny Hinn. I'd stay away from him. Dear Natalie, I also would like it to be known that i didn't mean to sound abrupt with the ranger Chris. At the time that i wrote my original note here, i didn't realize that the ranger was using an excerpt from: "A Commonsense Guide To Fasting, by Kenneth E. Hagan". It seems like a slow day on the end time forums today. Otherwise, davewatchman probably wouldn't be commenting on these types of threads where he risks getting into trouble with the "law". I'm sure we'll see plenty of action soon. But as soon as i read something like Jesus not doing a "bona fide" fast, i kind of go like, HUH? Then it's like, not about fasting anymore, it's all about the Son of Man. It sounds like saying His fast was not authentic, or genuine, or real, or true, or actual, or sterling, or sound, or legal, or legitimate. Imagine Kenneth E. Hagan telling Jesus in person that His fast was not "bona fide"? Everything Jesus did was "bona fide". The only One in heaven or on earth or under the earth that could open the scroll or even look inside it. A Son with whom the Father is well pleased. Fair and Square. Worthy is the Lamb.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 30, 2019 17:42:39 GMT -6
ranger- not sure why you addressed your reply to me, davewatchman was the one who asked.
Kenneth Hagin is a false teacher. He's the father of the Word of Faith movement that has produced people like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and Benny Hinn. I'd stay away from him. Dear Natalie, I also would like it to be known that i didn't mean to sound abrupt with the ranger Chris. At the time that i wrote my original note here, i didn't realize that the ranger was using an excerpt from: "A Commonsense Guide To Fasting, by Kenneth E. Hagan". It seems like a slow day on the end time forums today. Otherwise, davewatchman probably wouldn't be commenting on these types of threads where he risks getting into trouble with the "law". I'm sure we'll see plenty of action soon. But as soon as i read something like Jesus not doing a "bona fide" fast, i kind of go like, HUH? Then it's like, not about fasting anymore, it's all about the Son of Man. I know what you mean, and I am glad that you addressed it.
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Post by ranger007 on Mar 31, 2019 14:13:55 GMT -6
Dear friends. Natalie, please be careful who you call a false teacher. Many have taken this stance, out of ignorance. Please don't judge something you don't understand, and lump some that are not even associated with "Word of Faith". "Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:4 NKJV). If these servants of God are in error, then God will deal with them. We have no place to judge. Please check out my blog series on Judgement. To clarify my points, THE CHURCH is not given instructions of encouraged to fast. You gave examples where fasting was practiced, but not commanded or instructed. I am not trying to make trouble, but I will defend error. Thanks for your comments. I post here to edify the body, not for my words to be picked apart. Discussion is one thing, unkind criticism is another. I am not a novice, but a teacher for over 50 years. I try my best to back up every word I post with the Word of God.
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Post by ranger007 on Mar 31, 2019 14:19:56 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Mar 31, 2019 15:36:15 GMT -6
Dear friends. Natalie, please be careful who you call a false teacher. Many have taken this stance, out of ignorance. Please don't judge something you don't understand, and lump some that are not even associated with "Word of Faith". " Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:4 NKJV). If these servants of God are in error, then God will deal with them. We have no place to judge. Please check out my blog series on Judgement. To clarify my points, THE CHURCH is not given instructions of encouraged to fast. You gave examples where fasting was practiced, but not commanded or instructed. I am not trying to make trouble, but I will defend error. Thanks for your comments. I post here to edify the body, not for my words to be picked apart. Discussion is one thing, unkind criticism is another. I am not a novice, but a teacher for over 50 years. I try my best to back up every word I post with the Word of God. I do not use the term false teacher lightly.
I do not think the passage you quoted has to do with judging someones teaching. It is speaking of those who Paul calls "weak in the faith." (Rom 14:1) It's speaks more of celebrating holy days and abstaining from foods some may still consider unclean. Am I missing where it talks about teaching and doctrine?
Jesus told us to not be deceived for teachers will come in His name and lead people astray. How are to know unless we judge their doctrine?
Paul tells us to judge those in the church: 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of a brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those on the outside. Remove the evil person from among you."
1 John 4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (Test the spirits, examine the doctrine they teach)
I am sure that God will deal with those that are in error, but we also need to point out the errors. It is how we help each other train our powers of discernment by practice in order to distinguish between truth and lies (Heb 5:14) It's how we keep each other grounded in the truth and away from those that lead away from true doctrine. I see things in Hagin's teachings that are in error and should be avoided. I apologize if you feel that your words have been picked apart by myself or by Dave. However, part of posting here is to have discussion and pointing out error if necessary. We definitely can use edification, but part of the joy of this forum is interacting with each other about what we have read.
If something I said seemed unkind, I apologize, please forgive me.
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Post by ranger007 on Apr 1, 2019 9:56:01 GMT -6
Dear Natalie, You have not said anything offensive, but I too defend the truth. I am a Preacher's son, raised in church. I spent 12 years in a Word of Faith Church, and graduated from Rhema Bible school. The Word of God came alive for me, under that teaching. Many have criticized what they don't understand, plus there are some out there, who have gotten into the ditch. Those who have taken the sound doctrine, and made it work for their benefit, will be corrected by God. You lumped some other preachers who may be in error, into the Word of Faith camp. Joyce Meyers, has some ties to WOF, but is personally not my cup of tea. Joel Osteen, is the son of a mighty man of God, John Osteen. Again, I personally don't agree with what he is teaching, but I don't condemn. Benny Hinn is under the umbrella of the Assemblies of God. I can tell you first hand, I sat under Benny during a very difficult time in my life. He was at one time, quite legitimate, I cannot say one way or another today, as I have not been following him of late. If you read my blog series: "Why Did Jesus Command Us Not To Judge", you may find that the Greek word, is best interpreted, discernment (Test). Not Judgement, (Tribulation, Condemnation). I break down what Jesus' own words, really say about the subject. I had a former friend on social media, who felt she had a special gift, to try and expose every ministry she did not agree with or understand. I repeatedly warned her of this practice. It is the spirit of satan, who is the accuser of the breather. We as believers are to pray for those, who may be in error. She did not heed my warnings, and judgement came upon her house! The reason I wrote that series was to educate folks, to not bring condemnation upon a Ministry. You put yourself in a very bad position. I have seen with my own eyes, curses boomerang and come right back home. Take for example, a famous preacher fell from grace, and went to prison. A second famous preacher, publicly came against the first man, and condemned his actions. Not long after that the second preacher was weeping and apologizing, to his congregation, because he himself had committed a similar sin. Please here my heart here, and understand WHY, I give this serious warning to all who may read this. It is not our place, to judge another ministry. We simply cannot afford the price we may have to pay. We need to learn forgiveness, and pray for those who labor for the Gospel. I assure you God can fix the error, much better than we ever could. We need to be aware of the spirit we operate from. CHRIS
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Post by ranger007 on Apr 1, 2019 9:57:58 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Apr 1, 2019 12:32:14 GMT -6
Brother Ranger - Your posts here, linking to another source make it difficult for some of us to go to your blog to read, then bring our thoughts back here to the site. Most that frequent this forum prefer to dialogue about topics here where we can hear others views on particular topics and gain better understanding from one another.
We do appreciate your sharing your information with us, but think it would be better for many to interact in this manner.
Also - in reading your last note, your credentials are quite lengthy and certainly more complete than many who frequent here. Although I do not have a fraction of the schooling or experience you have, I do have some learning and understanding of the teaching of Mr. Hagin and others in the Word of Faith. Without getting into specifics at this time, no one has perfect doctrine including all those mentioned above.
This is why we do prefer to dialogue about teachings and our own independent studies as the Word instructs to do. We (I speak in general terms) endeavor to be like the Bereans. With that if there are certain things that should be discussed or questions about teachings that dont align with current thinking we invite those to stand to scrutiny whether the author is me, you, Osteen whoever.
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Post by ranger007 on Apr 2, 2019 8:51:39 GMT -6
Thanks Brother Mike. I do not like to drop my experience out there to give myself credibility, I try to let me work speak for itself. You are correct, as we should be as the Bereans, and study to be sure the words are true. That is the intent of my blog, to bring the truth of the scriptures to light. Many in the body of Christ, have taken what has been told them, by some that are in error. Others have taken Theology as their god. Just bringing the facts that I too, do not follow some of these who are possibly in error. And never speak publicly against another of God's servants. As I said before, God will deal ever so swiftly, with those who bring error to the body. I take the office of Teacher very seriously, and try my best to bring the truth, backed by the Word. What can I do, to be able to serve my fellow brothers in sisters in this group? How do I cross link with other threads? Is there somewhere that I can post to be the most effective? I want to be a blessing, and not a problem. Please advise. Thanks
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Post by ranger007 on Apr 2, 2019 8:53:55 GMT -6
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