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Post by boraddict on Jan 14, 2019 20:03:57 GMT -6
I hope you enjoy my analysis. Isaiah 18 in my opinion follows the fall of Damascus in Chapter 17. So I will dig right in to Verse 18:1 (KJ) as follows:
"Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:"
This verse is written primarily with metaphor. So lets break it apart in sections to identify the metaphors.
1) Woe 2) to the land 3) shadowing (metaphor) 4) with wings (metaphor) 5) which is beyond 6) the rivers (metaphor) 7) of Ethiopia. (metaphor)
The big metaphor and easiest to see is "the rivers." Isaiah as well as most of the prophets substitutes rivers for armies. So number 6 states "the armies."
Another easy one is "with wings" that means "with saints." Although this metaphor is not as common as rivers, it is easily identified via the link "wings" in Rev. 12:14 wherein Lord Jesus that is the great eagle has two wings that are the angel and John of Rev. 1:1. These two individuals are two saints from Christ just as we all are saints of Christ. Thus, wings is metaphor for saints.
As most of you if not all understand, shadowing refers a type and shadow relationship. Therefore, since shadowing is the counterpart to the type, then this metaphor bates the question: what is the type?
The last metaphor to understand is "of Ethiopia." A link to this metaphor is found in Rev. 9:14 in which 4 angels "are bound in the great river Euphrates." That is, 4 angels are bound in the great army Euphrates. Simplified, it states: 4 angels are committed/obligated/ bound in the great army of God. Thus, the metaphor "of Ethiopia" means of God.
So, now let's substitute the correct language for the metaphors as follows:
1) Woe 2) to the land 3) following a type 4) with saints 5) which is beyond 6) the armies 7) of God.
Thus the analysis of Isaiah 18:1 is: Woe to the land following a type with saints which is beyond the armies of God.
And in chiasmus form"
Woe to the land following a type with saints which is beyond the armies of God.
Thus, woe to the land which is beyond the armies of God. A land that follows a type with saints. So, what land has saints and what land does not? Naturally, the US has saints and Russia does not. Therefore, the woe in Isaiah 18:1 is to Russia.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 14, 2019 21:46:40 GMT -6
How do you know when to take things literally or as a metaphor?
Seems to me "beyond the rivers of Ethiopia" is pretty straight forward and there is no need for any other interpretation.
I always thought that the wings in Rev was God's protection. Such as seen in Psalm 91:4 I think it's a stretch to say it is first John and an angel and then stretch it to saints for this passage.
I also don't see how you connect the river Euphrates with Ethiopia - they aren't in the same area. And saying that the "great river Euphrates" is the "army of God" is odd to me. I don't think the Euphrates is ever anything other than the Euphrates.
Claiming this is the US and Russia is a bit of a stretch.
Sometimes I think you take things too figuratively. If things are to be taken figuratively than Bible should explain itself, and it is usually relatively close to the passage in question. So, if Isaiah 18 is figurative, then something later in Isaiah should make it clear. Or perhaps earlier.
Couldn't this verse just as easily mean "Woe to a land filled with birds which is beyond Ethiopia" ? Although some translations say "land of whirring wings"...think locusts. Here's from one commentary: Verse 1. - Woe to the land; rather, Ho for the land! (comp. Isaiah 17:12). Shadowing with wings; literally, either the land of the shadow of wings or the land of the noise of wings, most probably the latter. Allusion is thought to be made to the swarms of buzzing flies, especially the tsetse, with which Ethiopia abounds. At the same time, these swarms are, perhaps, intended to be taken as emblems of the hosts of warriors which Ethiopia can send forth (comp. Isaiah 7:18).
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Post by boraddict on Jan 15, 2019 8:11:15 GMT -6
How do you know when to take things literally or as a metaphor? For me, scripture is a metaphorical language. So understanding scripture includes isolating those things that are not metaphor to find the metaphors. I agree that there is also a literal component to scripture. I think you are right about wings being God's protection but that comes via his servants, the wings. The word "rivers" is always metaphor for armies. At least that is how I have been able to identify the word metaphorically throughout scripture. So in both passages the emphasis is not upon the stated river Euphrates or Ethiopia, but the army. Afterwards, it is simply a matter of figuring out whose army? I continued the identifiers from the previous chapter (17). So, those that are currently involved in Syria are: Turkey, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Russia, United States, etc. Of these, the two dominant players are the US and Russia. Chapter 18 is in context to Chapters 17 and 19. So the flow is the fall of Damascus in Chapter 17, then Chapter 18, then the civil war in Chapter 19.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 15, 2019 9:13:22 GMT -6
Isaiah 18:2
"That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!"
I am breaking this verse apart to show the flow as follows:
1) That a) sendeth ambassadors b) by the sea, 2) even a) in vessels of bulrushes b) upon the waters, 3) saying, Go, ye swift messengers, 4) to a nation a) scattered b) and peeled, 5) to a people a) terrible b) from their beginning 6) hitherto; a nation a) meted out b) and trodden down, 8) whose land 9) the rivers 10) have spoiled!
So let's begin with number 9 "the rivers." I guess it can be said that the rivers (9) have spoiled (10) the land (8). If this is taken literally then we must conclude that a river spoils the land; however, this is not accurate because rivers revitalize the land with deltas, marshes and habitat. So this is clearly metaphorical and the armies (9) have spoiled (10) the land (8).
Whose land? The land that was first mentioned in Verse 18:1 to witt: "Woe to the land." Thus, "woe to the land" (v. 18:1) that the armies have (past tense) spoiled (v. 18:2).
Notice that the armies of Verse 18:2 are not the same armies of Verse 18:1. No, these armies of Verse 18:2 are historical and this is evidenced by (4) a nation scattered and pealed, and (5) a people terrible from their beginning. Again, as is said in my previous posting, this is Russia.
Now back to item (1), "that" sends ambassadors to the nation scattered and pealed. Since Russia is the land to which the woe applies (v. 18:1), as well as the nation scattered and pealed (v. 18:2), then the word "that" in Verse 18:2 refers back to "the rivers of Ethiopia" in Verse 18:1. Meaning, the rivers of Ethiopia (v. 18:1) sends the ambassadors (v. 18:2). That is, the armies of God sends the ambassadors.
"Saying, go ye swift messengers." So who is the swift messengers but missionaries? Thus, the armies of God sends missionaries to Russia. That is, the "vessels of bulrushes" are saints with messages of salvation.
The missionaries were sent to Russia in 1992 after the fall of Communism. Thus, Verse 18:2 was fulfilled in 1992.
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Post by bondservant on Jan 15, 2019 9:26:27 GMT -6
Isaiah 18:2 So let's begin with number 9 "the rivers." I guess it can be said that the rivers (9) have spoiled (10) the land (8). If this is taken literally then we must conclude that a river spoils the land; however, this is not accurate because rivers revitalize the land with deltas, marshes and habitat. So this is clearly metaphorical and the armies (9) have spoiled (10) the land (8). Do the rivers revitalize the land if they are turned to blood &/or become bitter (wormwood)?
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Post by boraddict on Jan 15, 2019 9:52:18 GMT -6
Isaiah 18:2 So let's begin with number 9 "the rivers." I guess it can be said that the rivers (9) have spoiled (10) the land (8). If this is taken literally then we must conclude that a river spoils the land; however, this is not accurate because rivers revitalize the land with deltas, marshes and habitat. So this is clearly metaphorical and the armies (9) have spoiled (10) the land (8). Do the rivers revitalize the land if they are turned to blood &/or become bitter (wormwood)? Traditionally speaking, rivers do not destroy the land but provide fertile deltas and so forth. In the context of Isaiah 18:2, the rivers have spoiled the land. A land consisting of "a nation scattered and peeled" and "a people terrible from their beginning," thus, "a nation meted out and trodden down." It is to these people that the "swift messengers" are sent. To a people that have been (past tense) spoiled by the rivers. Thus, the applicable words in the verse are: scattered, peeled, terrible from their beginning, a nation meted out, trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled. I do not think that rivers of blood (wormwood) caused these people or this land to be scattered, pealed, terrible from their beginning, a nation meted out or trodden down. Perhaps you can explain this further but I do not see the connection.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 15, 2019 11:37:20 GMT -6
Do you ever look at other translations when you study? Almost all other translations translate it as the rivers dividing the land not spoiling it. Which makes more sense. Use Strong's to look up the word used there - it means to cleave or divide.
Also, do you ever look at commentaries to see if your interpretations are close to what other people say?
A comentary I read, and which makes sense, talks of the land of Ethiopia (aka Cush in some translations) sending ambassadors by boat. They want to stop the Assyrians which are the people who are feared near and far, the mighty nation, whose land is divided by rivers. Which means you're right about the Euphrates because that's one of the rivers that divided the land of the Assyrians. I think I got confused between the KJV and your interpretation about where the rivers were located.
I also think chapter 17, 18, and 19 are all separate messages to separate places. However, I think all three of them end speaking of the time of the end. 17 being the destruction of Damascus and the redemption of Israel, 18 being that the land of Assyria will honor God, in the end (vs 7), and 19 speaking of Syria and Egypt both belonging to God (vs18-24).
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Post by Natalie on Jan 15, 2019 12:09:15 GMT -6
Upon rereading, I see there are two rivers mentioned in vs 1-2. The one beyond the rivers of Ethiopia and the land that is divided by rivers.
The ESV uses Cush for the country. Cush is also in Ezekiel 38 and some commentaries translate it to Sudan instead of Ethiopia. The Nile goes through the Eastern part of Sudan. I am wondering if Sudan is a better translation. Knowing the politics of today, I think it is. Iran has more to do with Sudan then it does Ethiopia.
So, the land in Sudan beyond the Nile and present day Iraq that is divided by rivers Tigress and Euphrates.
Plain interpretation should be sought first. If that makes sense then there is no need to seek another interpretation, unless Scripture does it for us.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 15, 2019 17:46:40 GMT -6
Natalie, you are going to think this is funny but I try to never read other works on the scriptures because I do not want my analysis to be influenced by others. As a result I miss the mark quite often. I do read other's stuff however, but nothing that might interfere with my original work. Let's say that I do read stuff but try to avoid stuff as well. It is so much funner that way. For me it is all fun and there is no fun in reading others analysis. That is probably the best way to describe my approach. I live it every day and love the study. I get excited over a small minute detail that might take weeks to resolve; and once resolved it could very well be wrong. Once I worked on Revelation 12:12 for several days and then trashed that work in favor of my next analysis of 12:12 and trashed that in favor of the next analysis of 12:12. It is all fun with no end in sight.
The problem with others analysis is that they are probably as wrong as I am. For instance the Jehovah Witnesses would ask me why I continued to work on The Book of Revelation when they have already managed a complete understanding and written a book on it. I do have that book and love the pictures. However, in my opinion they have missed the mark throughout their entire work. So I did read parts of that book and smiled at it's simplicity. Not to knock that work mind you, but it is elementary.
However, what I love about this site is how well educated everyone is in scripture. I love how detail orientated we are.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 15, 2019 23:51:39 GMT -6
Isaiah 18:3
This verse is by far my favorite in Chapter 18. So the following is Verse 18:3 in chiasmus form:
A) "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye,
B) when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye."
First of all, notice the correlation between "inhabitants of the world" and "dwellers of the earth" in part A. This same same correlation exists between "lifteth up an ensign on the mountains" and "bloweth a trumpet" in part B. That is, "inhabitants of the world" is to "dwellers on the earth" as "lifteth up an ensign on the mountains" is to "bloweth a trumpet." That is, the lifting the ensign on the mountains means the same as blowing the trumpet.
So now lets examine the metaphors in part B as follows:
1) when he lifteth up (metaphor) 2) an ensign (metaphor) 3) on the mountains (metaphor) 4) and when he bloweth (metaphor) 5) a trumpet (metaphor) 6) hear ye
First is the easy one that is mountains (3) means nations. Secondly is the ensign (2) on the nations (3) means war on the nations. Next is lifteth up (1) means cause. Synonymous to lifting up (1) is to blow; thus, the metaphor "bloweth" (4) means cause. And last but not least is number 5 that is that links to the war on the nations; thus, to blow the trumpet is to cause war upon the nations.
Thus, Verse 18:3 states: All the inhabitants of the world will see when Lord Jesus causes war upon the nations they will also hear.
War upon the nations of the world occurs when the beast arises.
Thus far in Chapter 18 we have: Woe to Russia who was sent missionaries from the armies of God that began in 1992 (vv. 18:1-2), and the beast Russia causing war upon the nations (v. 18:3). I guess the point is that Russia was called to repentance but decided to continue along her old ways of causing pain and destruction. This time the people being scattered and pealed (v. 18:2) are not limited to Russia's homeland but the entire world (v. 18:3).
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Post by boraddict on Jan 16, 2019 18:15:22 GMT -6
Isaiah 18:4, the capstone verse for the chapter.
v. 18:1 v. 18:2 v. 18:3 v. 18:4 v. 18:5 v. 18:6 v. 18:7
"For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest."
Please recall that Verse 18:1 was the woe upon Russia as well as the introduction to God's army. Then in Verse 18:2 God's army sent missionaries to Russia. Thus Russia had a choice to accept repentance and salvation or continue along its historical path of scattering and pealing people. Then in Verse 18:3 the Lord decided to use Russia's choice of continued scattering and pealing to cause a war upon the nations of the world.
Now, in Verse 18:4 Lord Jesus will take his rest and let Russia continue with its work of destruction.
1) for the Lord said unto me 2) I will take my rest 3) and I will consider 4) in my dwelling place 5) like a clear heat (metaphor) 6) upon the herbs (metaphor) 7) and like a cloud of dew (metaphor) 8) in the heat of harvest. (metaphor)
Keep in mind that the Lord caused the war as stated in Verse 18:3 to wit: "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he (Lord Jesus) lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he (Lord Jesus) bloweth a trumpet, hear ye." Some may find this difficult to accept but Lord Jesus intends to remove wickedness from the earth and he has decided to use wicked governments, of which first and foremost is Russia, to accomplish this.
Again the metaphors are parallel so we have number 5 linking to number 8 and number 6 linking to number 7. Thus, the clear heat is the heat of harvest, and the herbs are like a cloud of dew. Thus, during the heat of the harvest the herbs are burned off like dew. As you know, dew is burned off rather quickly on a hot day, so, the herbs are burned off rather quickly.
The next logical question is Who are the herbs? Well, from Verse 18:3 we see that the inhabitants of the world and dwellers on the earth are to hear the war. Thus it is that the herbs are the people of the earth.
Therefore, Verse 18:4 states that Lord Jesus will not interfere with Russia attacking the people of the earth and that Russia will quickly take control of the earth.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 16, 2019 20:02:21 GMT -6
One of my kids is currently learning about prepositional phrases, modifiers, etc. and also a simile is a comparison using the words like or as where a metaphor doesn't use those. So what if we looked at it like this:
For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place (prep. phrase) like a clear heat upon herbs, (simile) and like a cloud of dew (simile) in the heat of harvest." (prep. phrase)
What is like a clear heat? what is like a cloud of dew?
The LORD and His watching are like those things.
I think the ESV is more clear:
For thus the Lord said to me: “I will quietly look from my dwelling like clear heat in sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.”
What do you think?
(I will say that I did not look up the original words to see if "herbs" or "sunshine" would be the correct word to use, I was more interested in sentence structure and flow of the language)
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Post by boraddict on Jan 16, 2019 22:57:07 GMT -6
One of my kids is currently learning about prepositional phrases, modifiers, etc. and also a simile is a comparison using the words like or as where a metaphor doesn't use those. So what if we looked at it like this: For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place (prep. phrase) like a clear heat upon herbs, (simile) and like a cloud of dew (simile) in the heat of harvest." (prep. phrase) What is like a clear heat? what is like a cloud of dew? The LORD and His watching are like those things. I think the ESV is more clear: For thus the Lord said to me: “I will quietly look from my dwelling like clear heat in sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.” What do you think? (I will say that I did not look up the original words to see if "herbs" or "sunshine" would be the correct word to use, I was more interested in sentence structure and flow of the language) Natalie you have clearly nailed it. I am so focused on the metaphors that I disregard the larger context of the sentence structure that gives the simile. I do that all the time. Interestingly in Hosea 12:10 the Savior states " I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." So the simile is a valuable tool for us. Also, in Verse 18:4 more than the Lord watching, he is also not getting involved. So the clear heat wherein he watches is also the heat of war that originated in Verse 18:3. It is this war that he lets play out, and this is the war the beast taking over the world.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 16, 2019 23:39:15 GMT -6
Isaiah 18:5
This is by far the most difficult verse in Chapter 18.
"For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches."
Here we are working on the second half of the chapter chiasmus so we should see a link from Verse 18:3 to 18:5; although, this link is perhaps a little skewed.
Thus, we are going back to before the war/harvest at part A of Verse 18:3 to wit:
"All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye." As you can see this is before the war/harvest so it is here that Verse 18:5, A, applies with "For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower." Thus, before the harvest/war the bud is perfect and the sour grape is ripening. That is, the salvation of souls is developing in Russia via missionary work as referenced in Verse 18:2.
Then comes part B of Verse 18:3 to wit:
"when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye." This links to Verse 18:5, B, "he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and (he shall) take away and cut down the branches." Thus, after the missionary work begins in Russia, Lord Jesus chops the limbs off the tree. Notice the corresponding parts of this second half of Verses 18:3 & 5 as follows:
1) when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; (v. 18:3, B) 2) and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. (v, 18:3, B) 3) he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, (v. 18:5, B) 4) and (he shall) take away and cut down the branches. (v. 18:5, B)
Now keep in mind that Verses 18:3 and 18:5 work as opposites in a way. Thus, item numbers 1 & 2 are not a perfect simile match to item numbers 3 & 4, but they are close. Thus, when the ensign is lifted upon the mountains that is the blowing of the trumpet (v. 18:3, B), then Lord Jesus cuts off the sprigs with pruning hooks and takes away and cuts down the branches (v. 18:5, B). That is, when the war/harvest begins (v. 18:3, B), then the missionary work to Russia stops abruptly (v. 18:5, B). Not only that, but the work is chopped off the tree. Thus, Russia will have lost all mercy from the Lord to have missionaries from hence forth.
So, while in Verse 18:3 B the ensign is lifted and the trumpet blown; in Verse 18:5 B the sprigs are cut off and the branches taken away.
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Post by bondservant on Jan 17, 2019 6:50:34 GMT -6
This is one reason why I love this board... I enjoy watching several of you work through the scriptures... No arguing.. no bickering... no one getting mad.
Just a love for God & His Word.. and to know Him more intimately. <3 Proverbs 25:2
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