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Post by rt on Aug 28, 2018 9:06:07 GMT -6
Yes, I had to get up too early and later realizedit didn't show anything you hadn't said. Question though...if John is seeing the past, who is singing the song? Because the church isn't in heaven until the future. Do you see it as the elders singing about the church? I know that different translations use either us or them in the song. I could see it as the elders singing about the church because I think the church is enjoying getting settled in our new Home. We are told who is singing the song, no need to guess or ascribe some allegorical meaning: The four living creatures and the twenty four elders sing the song. They don't sing the song because we are getting settled in heaven, they sing it because the event that just made the redemption of all mankind just happened. That is after all what the song is about, Jesus purchasing us. It isn't about our resurrection. Now I understand that some versions have a different wording for verse 9 and 10, instead of the word "them" the word "us" is used. I do not see a conflict here, since what was in heaven was also cleansed by the Lamb and would also after being cleansed, be considered part of His kingdom. This is the reaction in heaven to what I believe is the resurrection No new song here, but a fantastic cry of praise, imagine the sound of it, all those palm branches (reminiscent of palm Sunday) waving in the air, an innumerable multitude loudly praising God and the Lamb and all the angels and the elders and the 4 living creatures speaking words of praise with them. What a symphony of praise that will be. Which stands in stark contrast to that silence that happens as the seventh seal is removed from the scroll and the 70th week is about to begin.
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Post by douwant2go2heaven on Aug 28, 2018 9:55:53 GMT -6
rt AMEN FROM THE ROOFTOPS!I may not have been at it as long as you rt , but it was impressed upon my heart that John was seeing the past event of the Risen Lord entering the Throne room when He ascended. That I came up on my own without someone telling me. I just really looked at the words that were being used there. This element is why I do not understand why many continue to say that the church is not mentioned after 4:1.. To hold firm to this thinking prevents the Lord from showing each one who is diligently seeking His Word (not man's interpretations found in published books). I did not adopt someone else's view, I studied for myself. It also has me viewing the seals against the majority watchers/thinkers/theologians, not something WAY off base, but a plausibility of this or that and then things begin to open up more to what each Seal means. I read your Seals thread rt and right away I was Amening it because it hit me solid and with excitement, like YEAH! That fits!!!. I be your witness on the matter! I guess I am just repeating myself from page 1 of this thread. Not to derail, nor insult anyone, please, I love us all dearly, yet I can heed here: I think many want to fit the rapture before any tribulation for several reasons, namely because well-respected theologians have created a timeline that many just accept. and the other thing is, many confuse "Not destined for Wrath" as including the great Tribulation, or equating it.. My question here is if one is solid in his faith, what tribulation would shake him from that faith? Did not Jesus tell us not to fear for He has Overcome? Should we not embrace tribulation head on? The apostles did in their time, what makes those who remain worthy of escaping trials and tribulations? Clearly Rev says there are going to be Tribulation Saints. So His Kingdom building continues to happen once His servants are sealed and the process of Kingdom on Earth (as it is in heaven) comes to fulfillment. Blessings Barbiosheepgirl! It's not about what theologians have said. For cursed is anyone who puts their confidence in man. It's all about what God has said. Amen. Let me say this matter of factly: GOD DOES NOT CHANGE GOD DOES NOT CHANGE GOD DOES NOT CHANGE How God acted in the past, He will act in the same way in the future! Therefore we can see in the BIBLE that God will rescue His body from the time of trouble. This is proven by 2 witnesses. Enoch and Elijah Every 2,000 years God has had a "rapture" event. 1. Noah = Flood = Enoch 2. Moses = Law = Elijah 3. Yeshua = Grace = Body of Christ The pattern is clear as can be. To even insinuate that God will not stick to the pattern is to say that God is a liar and that God changes. 1. The first (roughly) 2,000 years of human history was ended with a flood. That time period is associated with Noah. During that time period God had a "rapture" event when He took Enoch before the flood came. 2. The next (roughly) 2,000 years of human history was dominated by the Law. That time period is associated with Moses. During that that time period God had a "rapture" event when He took Elijah in whirlwind of chariots and fire to heaven. 3. The last 2,000 years of human history which we are currently living in is dominated by Grace. This time period is associated with Yeshua. At the close of this time period the BIBLE is clear that there will be a snatching away of the body of Christ to heaven when Yeshua comes on the clouds. This is what the Bible teaches. There are no ands, ifs, or buts about it. Let God be true and everyone else a liar. Let the Bible speak for itself and you just can't go wrong. The rapture is at hand and for those who are ready we will be caught up. That's the bottom line. It's not even debatable. Glory Hallelujah! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE GOD DOES NOT CHANGE GOD DOES NOT CHANGE He will save His body from the hour of trial that is about to come on all the world! That's it, that's all! Hallelujah!
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Post by Gary on Aug 28, 2018 10:12:31 GMT -6
I'd like to add a few thoughts to this topic: 1. We're all discussing a non-essential bit of doctrine, so in all things - unity. In my walk I'm learning to have more peace when other brothers and sisters don't see things exactly the way I do. We need to agree on the essentials to have true fellowship, but on the other things it's ok to agree to disagree. Not that I always live that out perfectly, but I'm trying. Sometimes you simply can't persuade one another. 2. Part of this debate relies heavily on which parts of Rev. 4-7 we take most literally. I usually say in interpreting Scripture the more literal the better (trust Scripture at face value - prima facie), but we can also sometimes be too wooden or literal, even going beyond what the plain sense of Scripture is. Competing theories will each present varying Scriptures as evidence, so as often as I can I try to go with the theories that have more overwhelming evidence and consistency, and, most importantly, can account for every Scripture on the topic. 3. About the Lamb's appearance (Rev. 5:1-6): First, nothing in these six verses explicitly says the Lamb has only now shown up in Heaven. V. 4 could possibly be construed that way, but it isn't necessary. A big problem with interpreting v. 4 as suggesting the Lamb was not yet in Heaven until *then* is the very preceding verse: If we're going to interpret v. 4 very woodenly, we need to do the same in v. 3, which leads to a conundrum: did Jesus not exist until He shows up in Heaven? Of course not. So the purpose of vv. 1-6 isn't to tell us when Jesus shows up in Heaven, but that only Jesus is worthy to open the sealed scroll. Second, does Jesus in His glorious, heavenly (but still incarnate) form really look like a seven-eyed, seven-horned lamb or does He look like the direct revelation described by John in Chapter 1:12-18 (the glorious "Son of Man" described elsewhere in Daniel)? Third, in regards to timing, it's also important to recognize that Jesus was the first man to ascend into Heaven (capital 'H'). His ascension necessarily preceded the 24 elders (e.g. Jn. 3:13). 4. Regarding Rev. 1:19 and the outline of the book: I don't see much reason for argument here. I think RT has some good points (John had already recorded a few things, was about to record a few more things, etc). I also think a literal reading of the verse lends itself more to describing the futurist outline of the book. But I don't see this as contradictory - both can be true. The whole book and vision were given for the edification of the Church and for revealing the rest of God's future plans. John wrote in a certain order, and the fulfillment of the Church Age and Daniel's 70th Week occur in a certain order, as well. 5. Linear vs. Non-linear. Both sides agree with treating Revelation chronologically, but there are specific questions about how best to do that. No one can treat it perfectly, woodenly chronological because it's a semitic text and isn't written like a Western-style timeline or court report. The book forms a single chiasm and has the basic structure of 1. ordered overview, 2. detailed interlude, 3. ordered overview, 4. detailed interlude, etc. I explain this in detail here under the final section "Concluding Thoughts". 6. About Revelation 7, I'll admit I've long toyed with the idea that 7:9-14 is a picture of the rapture, but the more I studied it and the more literally I take it, the more I see this as the ongoing collection of the souls of the martyred Trib Saints / 5th Seal Martyrs who are not resurrected until *after* Christ returns and slays the wicked (Rev. 20:4). Several of these details can be found in vv. 13, 14, and 16: V. 13 - wearing white robes rather than garments (see here) V. 14 - they are coming out of the Great Tribulation. While I've seen a few arguments presented to counter this in order to make it fit with the pre-trib rapture, it's honestly a difficult leap to make. The plain and literal sense of the text is exactly what is stated - they are coming out of the Great Tribulation. In fact, to further bolster the point, the "coming" (Greek - ἐρχόμενοι) is in the present participle form, indicating a present, ongoing action. V. 16a - "Never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst..." (the immediately preceding chapter details plagues of famine (Seal #3 & #4) that they would have lived through, but now that they're in Heaven - "never again" V. 16b - "The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat." (again, other plagues many of them would have lived through - Vial #4, Trumpet #1) If you show someone Revelation 7 and ask them to spot the rapture, it's only natural they'll pinpoint vv. 9-14. A few years ago, I would probably do the same. But if you show them the entire book of Revelation, you'll get widely varying opinions. Many will gravitate towards Rev. 4:1 because of all the details that fit with previous descriptions of the rapture (1 Thess. 4:16-18, 1 Cor. 15:51-53, Rev. 3:8, etc). Others will go to Rev. 11:15-18, Rev. 20:4, etc. That's why we have to dig deep on the details and stick with the plain sense as much as we can. We can leave no stone unturned. For me, when you stick to this simple outline, everything fits beautifully: Rev. 1:1-18 - Things Past (and things John had already recorded) Rev. 1:19-3:22 - Things Present (and things John was about to record) Rev. 4:1-22:21 - Things Future (and things John would record after) Digging a little deeper, you can break it down as follows: Rev. 1 - Intro Rev. 2-3 - Church Age Rev. 4:1-2 - Rapture Rev. 4:3-5:14 - Heavenly interlude scene (the indeterminable period of time between the rapture and Seal #1) Rev. 6:1-19:10 - The Day of the LORD / Wrath of God / Daniel's 70th Week Rev. 19:11-16 - Second Coming Rev. 19:17-21 - Wicked slain (Mt. 13:30 - Tares gathered first) Rev. 20:1-3 - Satan bound Rev. 20:4 - Righteous resurrected (Trib Saints / 5th Seal Martyrs / Multitude of souls in Heaven in Rev. 7 who had not taken the mark) - Note carefully that those with authority to judge (aka the Church / 24 elders, are already seated on *thrones* before this resurrection) - (Mt. 13:30 - Wheat gathered last) Rev. 20:5-6 - Millennial Kingdom Rev. 20:7-10 - Final post-millennial Gog and Magog War Rev. 20:11-15 - Great White Throne Judgment Rev. 21:1-22:5 - New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem Rev. 22:6-21 - Epilogue, warning, and invitation to believe because Jesus is coming soon Anyway, I love you all and respect all of the well done research presented. All of the above are simply my best attempts to be faithful in dividing Scripture. I could be mistaken at points, so compare everything to Scripture.
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Post by fitz on Aug 28, 2018 10:13:43 GMT -6
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. This is a description of the lamb...not His current state of being. He is the One who was slain...and that, if we want to be accurate, from the foundation of the world. Before creation He was the slain lamb (fore-ordained). Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So, for all eternity, past through future, Jesus can be described as the One who was slain, but it doesn't necessarily describe His current state of being at any point. Yes it is a description of the Lamb, not His current state of being, that also is my point. John describes what he saw at that moment in the revelation vision. My version words the verse in Rev 13 a bit differently, the passage isn't saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, it is saying that the names of the people who are not found written in the book from the foundation of the world: Yes, this is where translations get tricky, huh? NLT seems to agree with my reading of the KJV. This is settled Christian doctrine. The Lamb was slain before the foundation...before creation our omniscient God foreknew the fall would occur and God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit agreed on a plan for the redemption of mankind. The Son would be the sacrifice...done deal from before the creation.
Revelation 13:8 New Living Translation (NLT) 8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.
[Edit] Uh...settled in my mind at any rate. I have never heard this point debated.
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Post by rt on Aug 28, 2018 15:33:32 GMT -6
I'd like to add a few thoughts to this topic: 1. We're all discussing a non-essential bit of doctrine, so in all things - unity. In my walk I'm learning to have more peace when other brothers and sisters don't see things exactly the way I do. We need to agree on the essentials to have true fellowship, but on the other things it's ok to agree to disagree. Not that I always live that out perfectly, but I'm trying. Sometimes you simply can't persuade one another. 2. Part of this debate relies heavily on which parts of Rev. 4-7 we take most literally. I usually say in interpreting Scripture the more literal the better (trust Scripture at face value - prima facie), but we can also sometimes be too wooden or literal, even going beyond what the plain sense of Scripture is. Competing theories will each present varying Scriptures as evidence, so as often as I can I try to go with the theories that have more overwhelming evidence and consistency, and, most importantly, can account for every Scripture on the topic. 3. About the Lamb's appearance (Rev. 5:1-6): First, nothing in these six verses explicitly says the Lamb has only now shown up in Heaven. V. 4 could possibly be construed that way, but it isn't necessary. A big problem with interpreting v. 4 as suggesting the Lamb was not yet in Heaven until *then* is the very preceding verse: If we're going to interpret v. 4 very woodenly, we need to do the same in v. 3, which leads to a conundrum: did Jesus not exist until He shows up in Heaven? Of course not. So the purpose of vv. 1-6 isn't to tell us when Jesus shows up in Heaven, but that only Jesus is worthy to open the sealed scroll. Second, does Jesus in His glorious, heavenly (but still incarnate) form really look like a seven-eyed, seven-horned lamb or does He look like the direct revelation described by John in Chapter 1:12-18 (the glorious "Son of Man" described elsewhere in Daniel)? Third, in regards to timing, it's also important to recognize that Jesus was the first man to ascend into Heaven (capital 'H'). His ascension necessarily preceded the 24 elders (e.g. Jn. 3:13). 4. Regarding Rev. 1:19 and the outline of the book: I don't see much reason for argument here. I think RT has some good points (John had already recorded a few things, was about to record a few more things, etc). I also think a literal reading of the verse lends itself more to describing the futurist outline of the book. But I don't see this as contradictory - both can be true. The whole book and vision were given for the edification of the Church and for revealing the rest of God's future plans. John wrote in a certain order, and the fulfillment of the Church Age and Daniel's 70th Week occur in a certain order, as well. 5. Linear vs. Non-linear. Both sides agree with treating Revelation chronologically, but there are specific questions about how best to do that. No one can treat it perfectly, woodenly chronological because it's a semitic text and isn't written like a Western-style timeline or court report. The book forms a single chiasm and has the basic structure of 1. ordered overview, 2. detailed interlude, 3. ordered overview, 4. detailed interlude, etc. I explain this in detail here under the final section "Concluding Thoughts". 6. About Revelation 7, I'll admit I've long toyed with the idea that 7:9-14 is a picture of the rapture, but the more I studied it and the more literally I take it, the more I see this as the ongoing collection of the souls of the martyred Trib Saints / 5th Seal Martyrs who are not resurrected until *after* Christ returns and slays the wicked (Rev. 20:4). Several of these details can be found in vv. 13, 14, and 16: V. 13 - wearing white robes rather than garments (see here) V. 14 - they are coming out of the Great Tribulation. While I've seen a few arguments presented to counter this in order to make it fit with the pre-trib rapture, it's honestly a difficult leap to make. The plain and literal sense of the text is exactly what is stated - they are coming out of the Great Tribulation. In fact, to further bolster the point, the "coming" (Greek - ἐρχόμενοι) is in the present participle form, indicating a present, ongoing action. V. 16a - "Never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst..." (the immediately preceding chapter details plagues of famine (Seal #3 & #4) that they would have lived through, but now that they're in Heaven - "never again" V. 16b - "The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat." (again, other plagues many of them would have lived through - Vial #4, Trumpet #1) If you show someone Revelation 7 and ask them to spot the rapture, it's only natural they'll pinpoint vv. 9-14. A few years ago, I would probably do the same. But if you show them the entire book of Revelation, you'll get widely varying opinions. Many will gravitate towards Rev. 4:1 because of all the details that fit with previous descriptions of the rapture (1 Thess. 4:16-18, 1 Cor. 15:51-53, Rev. 3:8, etc). Others will go to Rev. 11:15-18, Rev. 20:4, etc. That's why we have to dig deep on the details and stick with the plain sense as much as we can. We can leave no stone unturned. (I did not copy the rest to shorten the post)I would like to comment on your points if I may Point 1. Completely agree, these are not deal breakers so to speak. I am very cognizant of the fact that most will disagree with my interpretation of the passage. It doesn't change my opinion of any as individuals. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and if we don't agree, it still remains true. Point 2. My view is when the plain reading of scripture makes common sense, then that is what makes the most sense. Also I believe that we can look to other portions of scripture to help us understand what is said more completely. For instance Hebrews 9-12, is a picture of what John sees happening in Revelation 4-5.
Point 3. a) correct, nothing says, "Jesus wasn't anywhere to be seen", though John is very detailed in his description of everything to be seen there. The verse you point to is not the proof text for Jesus not being there. The truth is inferred by the idea that John does not describe Jesus in any form as being present. Something he was very careful to observe earlier. He describes a voice like that of a trumpet who calls him through the open door, to come up to the heavenly tabernacle where he would receive the rest of the revelation. But he fails to describe Jesus as being there as the scene unfolds. The text you quote merely points out that there was no one anywhere worthy to open the sealed book, presumably Jesus (On earth or under the earth at that time) was not yet worthy to do so until He appears in heaven as the slain Lamb. His being slain is what makes Him worthy. b) John carefully details Jesus earlier in chapter 1, as one like the son of man, in His glorified majestic state. If John describes Jesus in this chapter looking like a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes, then I believe that is the way Jesus wanted to be seen and that is the way He wanted John to record Him, for a very good reason, so that the reader would understand what it taking place. By the way John and others in the passage and those that follow continue to describe Him as the Lamb throughout the rest of the Revelation with the last mention of Him being chapter 22:3. With the exception of the description of Christ's return, I believe for the most part He is described as the Lamb. (Though in my quick search I may have missed others). Do you really believe that Jesus is limited in the way He can present Himself? Does He really look like a seven eyed, seven horned, wooly (people eater, hee hee-- just had to throw in a joke here) Lamb. Maybe, maybe not, how do I know? But that is how John describes Him as looking. And because he does we should take notice, because it means something. c) yes Jesus was the first born of the resurrection, but since I do not see the 24 elders as human beings resurrected into Heaven (big H) then that does not present a problem for me. Point 4. I tend to agree, both could be true, it is a fact that Jesus does go on to show John things to come after he is called up into the heavenly throne room. It is also a fact that what comes after Revelation 1:19 isn't comprised of events that all happen in the future. The letters to the churches were written for the churches that existed at that time, not necessarily future churches, though the principles contained within the letters can apply to churches of the future. What was written about them was true of them at that time. What they would inherit was future, but their commendations or condemnations were current. Point 5. I agree that there is an order to the book and I have read about the chiastic structure, but I also believe that within that, there is a chronology. John tells us many times- "after this I saw" or "then I saw" with one event following after another. We can see where the text deviates from the chronology and where it picks back up, it is fairly obvious in the plain reading. Point 6. I have to disagree with you on this one, those multitudes who are standing before the throne of the Lamb are standing in the heavenly tabernacle, they have been resurrected. Every instance of a resurrection event shows those who have been, are found standing before the throne. They are not simply souls. John describes souls earlier as abiding beneath the altar of incense here, this altar would have resided within the throne room, so these souls are somewhere underneath it: again here these are described as souls: I believe John describes their resurrection earlier here: Note they are standing on the sea of glass, which is described earlier as being before the throne (Rev 4:6). These are described as standing on the sea, so they are presumably before the throne in the heavenly tabernacle. White robes are the heavenly raiment, I could share a whole study on this idea, but the angels wear white robes as well. The white robe of the multitudes, is (I believe) the resurrected body received by those who are found standing before the throne. So this is true of anyone raised from the dead to eternal life and is not proof that the multitudes are exclusively the tribulation saints, it is also true that all raised to life will inherit the same benefits. As for the "out of" issue , I deal with that in my other thread in detail. Also I did not ask my class to just read chapter 7, but they read from the beginning up until the trumpets sound. Including chapter 4, and 5. Those without preconceived ideas pointed to the multitudes as the most likely candidate to identify as the raptured saints. I would encourage you to do this with a group of people on your own. If you can gather a group who has no preconceived ideas, teenagers perhaps and see for yourself what they point to. To me, the timeline I share in my other thread makes sense, plain simple sense, laid out consecutively and in order. It pretty much matches yours in order, I just see that the passages line up slightly differently within that order. Again none of this in hindsight will make one bit of difference to any of us. When we are all standing around the throne shouting praises to our God and Savior, no one will be yelling "I was right", none of this will matter then. So some might ask why debate it at all? First of all, to me, I enjoy it, I love digging into God's word. I learn from it and from others who have differing points of view and hopefully others learn from me as well. Do I want to convince others, sure, but I am not offended if that doesn't happen. A tad frustrated at times perhaps, but in the end I recognize it's merits may be dubious at best. We're all in this together and I am looking forward to spending the rest of eternity getting to know all of you!
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2018 19:26:20 GMT -6
The end of vacation includes some time with my husband at work, so I have been able to work on an answer for venge . The question was if I saw the horsemen as judgements, did I see the rapture after them. A second question being, was the horseman, seals, etc all considered wrath. I don't think that was asked, but it is one that came to my mind. First, I am not entirely sure that the horsemen in Zechariah are the same as the ones in Revelation. The colors are different, and their jobs are different. Those patrol the earth and report back to the LORD whereas the ones in Revelation are sent out with specific things to do. Or maybe they are the same but their jobs have changed. So, first some thoughts, maybe random and me just thinking out loud...Our sins have been judged and paid for at the cross. Christ took the punishment, judgement, and wrath of God for us. So the church has no need to go through any judgement. However... God does judge the sins of individual nations and believers may been living in those nations at the time. For example, Israel and the Babylonian captivity. Or something like Jeremiah 18:7-10 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
But there will come a time when He will deal with all nations: Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with you,' says the Lord, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'
Isaiah 26:21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.
So, when do I see the nations being punished (judged) for their sins (this is different than individuals at the White Throne judgement)? After the Rapture. Going to the passage in Isaiah, the two verses above verse 21 sound much like Thessalonians.
Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead. (Some translations say the earth shall give birth to its dead) Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.
So, the dead are raised, and we who are alive join them. We hide ourselves in chambers (bridal chambers?) until the indignation (anger, fury H2195) has passed. The Lord comes out to punish those on the earth. Not wrath, but anger and punishment for their iniquity. (Here are some verses that show indignation is different than wrath Deu 29:28 and Ps 78:49) Rev 14:10 says His wrath is poured into His cup of indignation.
I see the rapture happening in Rev 4:1, symbolized by John being called to heaven by a voice like a trumpet. So, based on Isaiah 26:19-21, the church is shut away and judgement begins -- the opening of the seals. However, because of the verses in the Bible that show that nations can be judged while believers are still on the earth, I see how people can have the rapture happening after the first four seals (or five possibly).
So, the next thing I had to decide...when does God's wrath begin if the first four seals are judgements and not wrath? God's wrath has an ending point Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" therefore it must have a beginning. Before studying this more, I would have said chapters 15 and 16, but looking at the seals, those on earth see the sixth seal as God's wrath. So, I think that is when the wrath begins. We are definitely not here for that, so that could be another reason for having the rapture before seal six.
One thing I considered is that while I believe we are seeing birth pangs (contractions) full labor has not started. The world sees it as "climate change" and extreme things begin to be the new normal. The opening of the seals will begin true labor. But people will still be in denial. Those who become believers after the rapture will know the truth. I am sure they will be studying Revelation. They will be killed because they are preaching the truth. That is seal five. (This last paragraph is totally my opinion and speculation based on current events.)
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Post by venge on Aug 29, 2018 12:49:39 GMT -6
The end of vacation includes some time with my husband at work, so I have been able to work on an answer for venge . The question was if I saw the horsemen as judgements, did I see the rapture after them. A second question being, was the horseman, seals, etc all considered wrath. I don't think that was asked, but it is one that came to my mind. First, I am not entirely sure that the horsemen in Zechariah are the same as the ones in Revelation. The colors are different, and their jobs are different. Those patrol the earth and report back to the LORD whereas the ones in Revelation are sent out with specific things to do. Or maybe they are the same but their jobs have changed. So, first some thoughts, maybe random and me just thinking out loud...Our sins have been judged and paid for at the cross. Christ took the punishment, judgement, and wrath of God for us. So the church has no need to go through any judgement. However... God does judge the sins of individual nations and believers may been living in those nations at the time. For example, Israel and the Babylonian captivity. Or something like Jeremiah 18:7-10 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
But there will come a time when He will deal with all nations: Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with you,' says the Lord, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'
Isaiah 26:21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.
So, when do I see the nations being punished (judged) for their sins (this is different than individuals at the White Throne judgement)? After the Rapture. Going to the passage in Isaiah, the two verses above verse 21 sound much like Thessalonians.
Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead. (Some translations say the earth shall give birth to its dead) Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.
So, the dead are raised, and we who are alive join them. We hide ourselves in chambers (bridal chambers?) until the indignation (anger, fury H2195) has passed. The Lord comes out to punish those on the earth. Not wrath, but anger and punishment for their iniquity. (Here are some verses that show indignation is different than wrath Deu 29:28 and Ps 78:49) Rev 14:10 says His wrath is poured into His cup of indignation.
I see the rapture happening in Rev 4:1, symbolized by John being called to heaven by a voice like a trumpet. So, based on Isaiah 26:19-21, the church is shut away and judgement begins -- the opening of the seals. However, because of the verses in the Bible that show that nations can be judged while believers are still on the earth, I see how people can have the rapture happening after the first four seals (or five possibly).
So, the next thing I had to decide...when does God's wrath begin if the first four seals are judgements and not wrath? God's wrath has an ending point Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" therefore it must have a beginning. Before studying this more, I would have said chapters 15 and 16, but looking at the seals, those on earth see the sixth seal as God's wrath. So, I think that is when the wrath begins. We are definitely not here for that, so that could be another reason for having the rapture before seal six.
One thing I considered is that while I believe we are seeing birth pangs (contractions) full labor has not started. The world sees it as "climate change" and extreme things begin to be the new normal. The opening of the seals will begin true labor. But people will still be in denial. Those who become believers after the rapture will know the truth. I am sure they will be studying Revelation. They will be killed because they are preaching the truth. That is seal five. (This last paragraph is totally my opinion and speculation based on current events.)
Natalie, Appreciate your reply! Hope your vacation was wonderfully relaxing. If you would like Natalie, I would be happy to explain my point of view in PMs and not on the forums and continue this there as to keep tract and avoid going off course.
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Post by venge on Aug 29, 2018 13:28:56 GMT -6
Yes, I had to get up too early and later realizedit didn't show anything you hadn't said. Question though...if John is seeing the past, who is singing the song? Because the church isn't in heaven until the future. Do you see it as the elders singing about the church? I know that different translations use either us or them in the song. I could see it as the elders singing about the church because I think the church is enjoying getting settled in our new Home. We are told who is singing the song, no need to guess or ascribe some allegorical meaning: The four living creatures and the twenty four elders sing the song. They don't sing the song because we are getting settled in heaven, they sing it because the event that just made the redemption of all mankind just happened. That is after all what the song is about, Jesus purchasing us. It isn't about our resurrection. Now I understand that some versions have a different wording for verse 9 and 10, instead of the word "them" the word "us" is used. I do not see a conflict here, since what was in heaven was also cleansed by the Lamb and would also after being cleansed, be considered part of His kingdom. This is the reaction in heaven to what I believe is the resurrection No new song here, but a fantastic cry of praise, imagine the sound of it, all those palm branches (reminiscent of palm Sunday) waving in the air, an innumerable multitude loudly praising God and the Lamb and all the angels and the elders and the 4 living creatures speaking words of praise with them. What a symphony of praise that will be. Which stands in stark contrast to that silence that happens as the seventh seal is removed from the scroll and the 70th week is about to begin. RT, I just find interesting that Rev 5:9 says, And then again in Rev 7:9 With one, Christ purchased for God with his death on the cross: 1. Every Tribe 2. Every Language 3. Every People 4. Every Nation And then, we see the same exact thing after the 6th seal. A Multitude no one could count. Must have been a LOT of people. The same identifiers of Rev 5:9. This time, standing before the throne. They are not the 144k. These are those that no one could count. I'd assume if the rapture came before the first seal, if it were to be described....I would imagine God would have man write: That would say, there it is! But it isn't before the first seal otherwise it would be the "Bingo!" This happens after the 6th seal. But this cannot be Jews or pre trib converts...this is a great multitude no one could number. That statement is not made anywhere else to describe believers. Why would it be after the seals and not before? Matthew 24:29-31 says, I know there are naysayers. Lets take out the wrath part and do not define it yet. Let's just say all of Revelation is open. Where is the "Bingo?" Voice like a trumpet was heard but he is in the spirit and not dead. Flesh cannot exist in heaven. OR...….. A sign of Christ. A loud trumpet call. Coming in the clouds. Power and glory. Gathering his peoples One end of heaven to the other. North, south, east and west. World wide. Why? Its is a multitude no one can number of every nation, people, tongue and tribe. why after Christ says this, he says "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left"He says it after he describes his gathering. He doesn't say that statement before but after!
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Post by venge on Aug 29, 2018 15:18:44 GMT -6
I should add, I was keeping this in PMs but why not...I'll put it out here to for those interested.
Leviticus 23
Let us dissect it.
God gave Christ the land because he was worthy. The priest here is Christ. He was first a prophet, then a Priest and in the future a King. The Priest is given the first fruits of grain of a larger harvest.
Christ shows the first fruit unto God on Sunday, the Lords day. Notice afterwards the following:
No other grain come to God until that offering is shown first. Those of us who study know we are the grain, the wheat the fruit of the land.
Now look at verse 15:
Ready for it? Rev 14:3-4
The first fruits are the 144k after the 6th seal. After the first fruits according to Leviticus
We are the NEW grain to the Lord after the first fruits. We are the harvest after the first fruits. This is why after they are sealed, you see a multitude in heaven from every nation, tribe, people etc... That is because no grain was to be harvested until the first fruits was brought to the Lord per (Leviticus 23:14).
How about Matthew 13?
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Post by rt on Aug 30, 2018 6:43:06 GMT -6
venge , You may already be aware of this, but to clarify for others, there are two first fruits gatherings - the first is the Barley first fruits which happens at the end of the feast of unleavened bread and is the one you posted about from Leviticus, the second is the first fruits of the wheat harvest along with other first fruits (wine, figs,etc..) which happens at Pentecost. I tend to lean toward the body of Christ being associated with the Barley harvest, since we are associated with Christ as His body. So I would agree that we are the new grain, a type of first fruits to the Lord and the first to be resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle. While the 144,000 are the new (wheat) grain- also a type of first fruits to the Lord. The rest who are resurrected at the end of the 70th week could be considered the general harvest. I posted a study on this here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/283/resurrection-harvest
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Post by Natalie on Aug 30, 2018 6:53:25 GMT -6
Rusty pail asked a question in the shoutbox, so I am putting my answer here (rusty pail, you should join the forum officially and join the discussion. ) I put a more condensed answer in the shoutbox rusty pail- I see Luke 21 differently than Matt 24. (I think, there is another thread somewhere that also talks about that) I think Matthew speaks of the end with a foreshadowing of AD 70. I think Luke speaks of AD 70 with a foreshadowing of the end. There are slight differences. Matthew doesn't speak of Jerusalem being surrounded, Luke does. Luke doesn't speak of the AofD, and Matthew speaks of seeing the AofD and the need to flee. I think Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the fall of Jerusalem around 70 AD when the Jews were scattered and the Gentiles then had Israel and Jerusalem. Luke adds "before all this" in verse 12, and I think that carries through verse 24 then 25 picks up with end times things. The distress being the war and conquering taking place and the wrath is against only Israel and not all peoples. vs 23-24 "and wrath against this people. They will be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." I think 1948 signaled the starting of the end of the trampling. Even more so in 1969 with the recapturing of Jerusalem. Israel had rejected their Messiah, but they were given time to repent. God knew that they wouldn't, so sends His wrath to disperse them and make the land of Israel property of the Gentiles...for awhile.
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Post by mike on Aug 30, 2018 8:03:20 GMT -6
venge , You may already be aware of this, but to clarify for others, there are two first fruits gatherings - the first is the Barley first fruits which happens at the end of the feast of unleavened bread and is the one you posted about from Leviticus, the second is the first fruits of the wheat harvest along with other first fruits (wine, figs,etc..) which happens at Pentecost. I tend to lean toward the body of Christ being associated with the Barley harvest, since we are associated with Christ as His body. So I would agree that we are the new grain, a type of first fruits to the Lord and the first to be resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle. While the 144,000 are the new (wheat) grain- also a type of first fruits to the Lord. The rest who are resurrected at the end of the 70th week could be considered the general harvest. I posted a study on this here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/283/resurrection-harvest RT I had read your study last year and just re-read. Thank you for your hard work, dedication to understanding and sharing your studies with us! I recently came across a study on a similar topic from Jaco Prinsloo at Gods Roadmap to the End which agrees with a lot of what you have stated. The series he put out is 5 parts and I've watched about 3.5 of this last night (falling asleep towards the end of 4). Contextually the first video lays out his approach until about the mid-point of the video then the dissection begins. The first 3 videos really delve into the barley harvest and how it was 3 seperate events. The wave offering/firstfruits/ sheaf Leviticus 23:10-11 (Jesus and those resurrected with him), the rapture ( Romans 11:16), and the trib saints (Lev 23:22-the corners left for the poor) I am unsure I agree with his further dissection into the third video (10 Virgins) but that's not the purpose of this post or thread - at least not yet.
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Post by Gary on Aug 30, 2018 8:33:48 GMT -6
Definitely not! Here's something we definitely agree on Jesus is still incarnate, though glorified, so I think His normative appearance is now like "a son of man"—albeit a very, very glorious one (the most glorious of all!). But if He wants to look like a seven-horned lamb, He most certainly can (and did!). So this is in fact part of the point I was making. The fact that He appeared as a lamb "as if slain" has no bearing on the timing of when He appeared as such. Regardless of what He appeared as, He was/is in Heaven when John saw what He saw, which means Jesus had already ascended and been glorified. He was no longer slain—though He once was. Ah, that makes more sense now and I can better understand your perspective. I'd just add that if, in fact, Scripture teaches that the elders are humans, that would present a problem. Here's an informative quote from Got Questions?: Blessings to you.
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Post by Gary on Aug 30, 2018 8:43:41 GMT -6
You bring up an excellent point, Natalie!
I really want to do an article on the Olivet Discourse. I just posted this to the Shoutbox:
The question and answers about the Temple's destruction (70 AD) took place during the day as Jesus and His disciples were walking away from the Temple.
The question and answers about the end of the age and Jesus' second coming took place at night as Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives.
We can only speculate as to why Luke and Matthew chose to weave these two conversations together when they wrote their gospels, but I would speculate it was because:
1. The conversations were both eschatological in nature.
2. The conversations occurred around the same time (possibly even the same day).
3. The conversations were thematically related and some of the signs preceding the Temple's destruction in 70 AD will be repeated during the Tribulation in the lead up to Christ's return.
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Post by venge on Aug 30, 2018 12:53:49 GMT -6
Rusty pail asked a question in the shoutbox, so I am putting my answer here (rusty pail, you should join the forum officially and join the discussion. ) I put a more condensed answer in the shoutbox rusty pail- I see Luke 21 differently than Matt 24. (I think, there is another thread somewhere that also talks about that) I think Matthew speaks of the end with a foreshadowing of AD 70. I think Luke speaks of AD 70 with a foreshadowing of the end. There are slight differences. Matthew doesn't speak of Jerusalem being surrounded, Luke does. Luke doesn't speak of the AofD, and Matthew speaks of seeing the AofD and the need to flee. I think Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the fall of Jerusalem around 70 AD when the Jews were scattered and the Gentiles then had Israel and Jerusalem. Luke adds "before all this" in verse 12, and I think that carries through verse 24 then 25 picks up with end times things. The distress being the war and conquering taking place and the wrath is against only Israel and not all peoples. vs 23-24 "and wrath against this people. They will be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." I think 1948 signaled the starting of the end of the trampling. Even more so in 1969 with the recapturing of Jerusalem. Israel had rejected their Messiah, but they were given time to repent. God knew that they wouldn't, so sends His wrath to disperse them and make the land of Israel property of the Gentiles...for awhile. Hi rusty pail! 😉 I’m on my phone so I’ll keep my reply short. I take Luke vs 23-24 as prophecy. Could it be a past even too? I don’t know but the words are too familiar to Matthew and Revelation in my opinion. He says this is the desolation that has been written previously as making it the “big one” so to speak. There can be none other then the final attack on Israel in the future. The wrath upon this people I take as God’s incoming wrath which comes after the 6 seal per the verses that follow. Jerusalem being surrounded by armies before its destruction models the First, second and third Trumpets of Revelation. With each trumpet showing invading armies followed by desolation, misery, and all that comes from war. It’s a reimagining of Jerusalem’s fall to Nebuchadnezzar in a sense. For a complete scriptural break down I’d need more time at home to write something up. If you are serious about it, I can write you a summary.
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