|
Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2018 21:22:56 GMT -6
RT - I was working on a longer reply and then something simpler came to mind...Christ leaves the throne room to call the church home. We meet Him in the clouds. So, it is possible that He would return to the throne room after escourting us to our new Home. Isaiah 26:19-21) That is why the church is not in the throne room; they are not the elders.
|
|
|
Post by rt on Aug 27, 2018 21:23:46 GMT -6
But RT, 7:14 says the great multitude are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation. And as I have found while preparing an answer for venge, those on Earth see the sixth seal as God's wrath. The church would be removed before that, right? The short answer is yes- before that, but rather than explain here I will direct you to the other thread where I talk about both of these things- it's a long thread, but if you take the time and scroll through you will find the answer that addresses your concerns.
|
|
|
Post by rt on Aug 27, 2018 22:02:15 GMT -6
The whole context of the Book of Revelation is laid out clearly by King Jesus in Chapter 1. He says in Revelation 1:19 "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this."1. "The things that you have seen" was the Resurrected Christ in Revelation 1 2. The things "that are" were the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 3. And the things "that are to take place after this" is in Revelation 4-22 King Jesus tells us exactly how to rightly divide the book of Revelation. Now please believe that I will be the first to back the truth of there being multifaceted layers to the word of God. But to say that Revelation 4-5 is a flashback to when Christ entered heaven when He ascended back to heaven after His resurrection goes against what King Jesus said in Revelation 1:19. Everything is post resurrection in Revelation. And it begins with John recording what he had seen, which was the Glorified Christ. To say that there is a flashback to Christ ascension into heaven is to go against what He said in Revelation 1:19. That's the bottom line. And also Psalm 110 tells us why the lamb stands up in Revelation 5. The lamb stands up because it's time to make His enemies His footstool! Hence why His vengeance begins to be poured out the moment He takes the 7 sealed scroll. Just my thoughts. God bless you and I love you. Amen. Have you read through the thread? If not please take the time to do so, Rev 1:19, is not talking about future events that are to come, it is referring to the things that John would see in the vision of the revelation, in essence what John is told to do is to write down the things he would see after what he was seeing in the vision. I explain this earlier in detail. Wait a minute, did John see the lamb seated on the throne when he was called up into the heavenly tabernacle? No in fact John doesn't even see the Lamb at all, He is no where to be seen. He sees one who sat on the throne, not two, the Lamb would have been seated at the right hand of the Father first, John doesn't see Him there. In order to fulfill Psalm 110 John would have had to have seen Jesus seated on the throne next to the Father and then stand from His seated position. So when John enters there is no one anywhere able to open the book, no one worthy, presumably not even Jesus. John is distraught over this idea, until one of the elders says "stop weeping" John, the Lion of the tribe of Judah has overcome and is now able to open the book. Then voila, the Lamb appears standing "as if slain". What does that mean? "As if slain" The word "if" doesn't actually appear in the Greek, so it actually says "standing as slain". Slain meaning- "put to death by violence". So the Lamb suddenly appears standing as violently killed. Hmmmm? When does that happen ever again in the history of the heavens or earth??? I don't mean to sound antagonistic, just merely emphasizing the point. You believe that Rev 1:19 is talking about future events, because that is what has been regurgitated to you by others. I have no idea why others cannot see what I see, to me it could not be any plainer. I am not being disrespectful to those who have studied in the past who put forth this idea. But frankly and with all humility I believe them to be wrong.
So if you believe all events are yet to unfold in the future, and it appears that you do, then please answer my previously posted questions:
|
|
|
Post by douwant2go2heaven on Aug 27, 2018 22:34:43 GMT -6
Blessings RT
1. If you want to roll with that interpretation of Revelation 1:19 go ahead.
2. I believe Revelation 5 comes before Revelation 4. Meaning that Revelation 5 shows us how the rapture takes place and then Revelation 4 is the rapture taking place. Daniel 7:13-14 is the rapture described in the Old Testament. There King Jesus comes before the one on the throne (ancient of Days) with the clouds of heaven (bride of Christ meets Him in the clouds) to be married with His body and crowned with many crowns.
side note= The crowning of the King is also another proof text of the rapture. In Revelation 14:14 King Jesus comes on the clouds to harvest the earth with only 1 crown on His head. When He appears on the white horse in Revelation 19 at the battle of armageddon He has many crowns on His head. The crowning of the King thus takes place when He comes back to heaven with the clouds as Daniel 7:13-14 tells us. Amen.
3. To answer your final question the new song is the coronation of the King with many crowns which I explained above, it's also the marriage of the Bride to King Jesus, and it's also the rejoicing over the rewards handed out at the Bema seat of Christ. This is all new in the sense that we will see King Jesus face to face for the first time when we are raptured. The head meets the body and the new song is sung. Great rejoicing resounds through the heavens for this monumental event. I don't see how this is confusing to be honest.
|
|
|
Post by douwant2go2heaven on Aug 27, 2018 22:39:15 GMT -6
No one comes to the Father except through the Son. - John 14:6
In Daniel 7:13-14 =The Son brings the Bride (clouds of heaven) before the Ancient of Days. In Revelation 4:1= The voice from heaven (The Son) brings John (the bride) before the Ancient of Days on the throne.
Amen.
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Aug 28, 2018 4:57:21 GMT -6
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
This is a description of the lamb...not His current state of being. He is the One who was slain...and that, if we want to be accurate, from the foundation of the world. Before creation He was the slain lamb (fore-ordained).
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
So, for all eternity, past through future, Jesus can be described as the One who was slain, but it doesn't necessarily describe His current state of being at any point.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 5:39:25 GMT -6
This is one of our major problems as human beings: being tied to time. From the perspective of God who has created time it looks a bit different.... I agree with your very helpful post, fitz
|
|
|
Post by mike on Aug 28, 2018 6:08:59 GMT -6
rt I was reading through the replies and came to your statement here: My question for you about this statement is how does Stephen see Him standing at the right hand of the Father when this event took place before John would have had his vision? To Fitz point I think we need to view things less linear (in time) and understand that God has this all in His view day 1 to the last at all times. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2018 7:18:04 GMT -6
Aren't we presently a kingdom of priests? 1 Peter 2:9. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light
|
|
|
Post by rt on Aug 28, 2018 7:45:44 GMT -6
Okay, first of all a little disclaimer- I am not yelling or shouting here, I am not responding in order to poke a stick at anyone, so please don't take what I say here the wrong way. To those who mention in reply concerning time, and that we should not look at what is happening in the Revelation as linear, I agree to a point. But everything in the passage screams about what John is seeing- which is the start of the New Covenant era, an event from John's past, (a non linear event). I completely agree that Jesus exists out of time, to answer mike's question here: When was Stephen martyred? .......after Jesus had ascended, during Paul's ministry, correct? Stephen saw what existed in the heavens at the time he was killed. John was shown an event that had taken place earlier. Since there is no time in heaven, then is Jesus limited by linear time as to what He can show John? The thing you are pointing out to me is the very thing you yourselves are unwilling to accept. So you all want it to be linear when it suits your way of looking at things but you are unwilling to entertain the idea that what John sees does not agree with your current linear view; past + present+ future (vs 1:19)? I understand, believe me, how difficult it is to see what is happening outside of the box of what has been preconceived and taught for so long. What led me to this conclusion were conflicts I saw with the traditional pre-trib view and many, many hours of study, thousands of hours and years of study. I have read commentaries, many books by various authors who hold many different views concerning prophecy. I did not just adopt someone else's view, I studied for myself. There is still much I do not understand, but of this one point I am certain in my mind, that what John sees here in Chapters 4 and 5, is the beginning of the New Covenant in Christ.
|
|
|
Post by rt on Aug 28, 2018 7:49:48 GMT -6
Aren't we presently a kingdom of priests? 1 Peter 2:9. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light Well yes, and that is precisely my point. John included himself in that statement, so then if John was considered a kingdom and a priest, and we are also, then clearly the New Song being sung in the heavenly Tabernacle is an event from John's past and ours. This "song" was new, not old, it was the first time it was ever sung in the heavenly realm. It was sung in response to an event that took place, that event was the Lamb overcame and entered as slain into the throne room of heaven.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2018 8:10:52 GMT -6
Yes, I had to get up too early and later realizedit didn't show anything you hadn't said. Question though...if John is seeing the past, who is singing the song? Because the church isn't in heaven until the future. Do you see it as the elders singing about the church? I know that different translations use either us or them in the song. I could see it as the elders singing about the church because I think the church is enjoying getting settled in our new Home.
|
|
|
Post by rt on Aug 28, 2018 8:30:08 GMT -6
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. This is a description of the lamb...not His current state of being. He is the One who was slain...and that, if we want to be accurate, from the foundation of the world. Before creation He was the slain lamb (fore-ordained). Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So, for all eternity, past through future, Jesus can be described as the One who was slain, but it doesn't necessarily describe His current state of being at any point. Yes it is a description of the Lamb, not His current state of being, that also is my point. John describes what he saw at that moment in the revelation vision. My version words the verse in Rev 13 a bit differently, the passage isn't saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, it is saying that the names of the people who are not found written in the book from the foundation of the world: Virtually every other version of the bible words it this way. The version you quote (King James?) says the same thing, just worded differently. The book of life- belongs to the Lamb who was slain. Even if it is true that the Jesus can be considered the slain Lamb since the foundation of the world, it has no bearing on what John is seeing. Jesus was crucified within the context of time on earth, that did not happen in heaven, but on earth. Jesus left His heavenly abode which exists outside of time, and lived as a man on earth subjected to the time limitations of our planet. Jesus ascended from the earth 40 days from his resurrection. This happened within the context of our time frame on earth. Hebrews tells us this event only happens once, one time. John witnesses this event take place in heaven. Initially the Lamb was not there, there was no one worthy, and then suddenly there is someone worthy and the Lamb appears standing as slain, who overcame so that He can now open the sealed scroll. John doesn't just see a slain lamb standing, he sees the resolution to a problem - the scroll couldn't be opened, but now it can be. He knows what made the Lamb worthy, because the passage tells us- the lamb takes the book, he opens it because He was slain, because He redeemed mankind, because He made them to be a kingdom and priests. Because He has overcome. There was an unopened sealed book, and now there is a book being unsealed. Where was the Lamb, where was Jesus when John was called into the heavenly throne room? Why doesn't he describe Him there initially? He- singular, Him- singular. No mention of a Lamb, of Jesus, of anyone else other than the 24 elders and living creatures. Then we see the Lamb enter the scene, who comes and takes the book from the right hand of Him on the throne. There is interaction here, an event is taking place, it isn't just a vision of Jesus as the Lamb, it is Jesus as the Lamb doing something. Something important, something that all prophecy hinges on, something that makes the fulfillment of end times prophecy possible, John sees it and describes it for us.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Aug 28, 2018 8:34:01 GMT -6
no problem rt I know/knew you had studied this topic for years and you have often advised you dont know everything. I was simply questioning the timing of Stephen who saw Christ at the right hand of the Father, compared to John who had his vision after that. The timing of things past, present & future for John was that he saw (backwards in time) Jesus slain and realized that He was the one worthy. I get it...I may have misread your original reply ... lots to interpret (and often mis-interpret) when we're not face to face
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 28, 2018 8:40:40 GMT -6
rt AMEN FROM THE ROOFTOPS!I may not have been at it as long as you rt , but it was impressed upon my heart that John was seeing the past event of the Risen Lord entering the Throne room when He ascended. That I came up on my own without someone telling me. I just really looked at the words that were being used there. This element is why I do not understand why many continue to say that the church is not mentioned after 4:1.. To hold firm to this thinking prevents the Lord from showing each one who is diligently seeking His Word (not man's interpretations found in published books). I did not adopt someone else's view, I studied for myself. It also has me viewing the seals against the majority watchers/thinkers/theologians, not something WAY off base, but a plausibility of this or that and then things begin to open up more to what each Seal means. I read your Seals thread rt and right away I was Amening it because it hit me solid and with excitement, like YEAH! That fits!!!. I be your witness on the matter! I guess I am just repeating myself from page 1 of this thread. Not to derail, nor insult anyone, please, I love us all dearly, yet I can heed here: I think many want to fit the rapture before any tribulation for several reasons, namely because well-respected theologians have created a timeline that many just accept. and the other thing is, many confuse "Not destined for Wrath" as including the great Tribulation, or equating it.. My question here is if one is solid in his faith, what tribulation would shake him from that faith? Did not Jesus tell us not to fear for He has Overcome? Should we not embrace tribulation head on? The apostles did in their time, what makes those who remain worthy of escaping trials and tribulations? Clearly Rev says there are going to be Tribulation Saints. So His Kingdom building continues to happen once His servants are sealed and the process of Kingdom on Earth (as it is in heaven) comes to fulfillment.
|
|