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Post by Natalie on Aug 25, 2018 21:51:26 GMT -6
venge- You are putting words in my mouth, again. I said nothing about wrath, judgement, or who the horsemen are. I simply said that Jesus will call them forth and send them out.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 25, 2018 22:20:59 GMT -6
BSG- I see 4:1 as representing the rapture because I see chapters 2 and 3 as covering the church age. When the church age is over we will hear a shout, maybe even "Come up here!" (what we will hear is purely speculation on my part)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 4:28:17 GMT -6
BSG: I see Rev 4:1 as well as hint to a rapture as I agree with the multilayered structure of the book of Revelation. Just because of the multilayered approach I regard more views as valid and this also includes the view of a hinted rapture event in 4:1.
However I agree in most parts with M.Svigels paper (scroll down to the paragraph with Revelation 4:1-2 in the given link). The best fit for a description of the rapture can IMO be found in Rev 12 (also covered in the article above).
In a chronological sense of events the church is indeed no longer directly mentioned in Revelation, but when you see Revelation through the lens of a multilayered description then the church is of course mentioned "later", but only in a sense of subsequent chapters which are often spanning centuries or ages within one sentence and are not neccessarily in a chronological order.
In Rev 12 we see the church interestingly not mentioned as "ecclesia" as this is the case in Rev 1-3, but appearing in the picture of a child, a baby.
A child comprises like all humans of a body and a head and typically the head comes first at a birth.
This is also a hint to Christ and His body (the church). Sorry for preaching to the choir, we had this discussions last year over and over again....but maybe it serves as a reminder to some (even to me ).
My opinion regarding the seals is that we are just before the 6th seal and the seals were opened after the ascension of Christ. However it is debatable who the riders are, but I am in no way dogmatic on this.
Maybe we also have here several layers and valid interpretations of the seals/riders.
EDIT: I should add, that I see the tribulation as a period of 3.5 years which has not started yet.
I also don't have a fixed opinion, how this period is aligned with the seals/trumpets/vials of Revelation.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2018 7:56:04 GMT -6
I agree with Stephan that Chapter 12 is a better rapture picture. And I understand RT's thoughts that 4&5 are a vision of the past, even if I don't see them that way. I also understand the view that the first 4 seals may have already been opened even if I don't see it that way. I also am trying to hold my interpretation loosely as I look at how others view Scripture, especially Revelation.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 26, 2018 9:15:06 GMT -6
In the study of the letters to the assemblies/churches, Jesus speaks about them and then adds the phrase, "to those who overcome".. I attribute this to a Hope He gives AND the displeasure He sees just like when He was walking among the people that men within some of these churches are not waking in the Spirit/Faith but rather the law/religiosity of their assemblies/churches.
It seem implied to me thru His letters that there is also non-overcomers...I would define them as those uncircumcised of the heart. To me I can call them by Paul's definition found in Romans 2:28/29. I would not call all of these types of people blinded, but rather disobedient/reluctant to the Law of Faith. Is not Jesus returning to Judge this?
If the rapture is to be this major key demarcation of dispensation, where peoples eye are unblinded because of it, shouldn't there be a very clear cut set of passages among the layers of Revelation that demonstrate the Rapture? or the purpose thereof?
I have come to understand where the "raptures" are but I seem to be alone in this opinion...and will have to take that topic back to another thread as it is not part of this thread's topic.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2018 9:40:36 GMT -6
Maybe there is no clear Rapture verse because the Rapture is taught in scripture elsewhere, and Revelation is more focused on the Revelation of Christ (His Second Coming), pulling together the OT prophecies about the time of the end, and of the time of Jacob's Trouble. Just my thoughts.
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Post by venge on Aug 26, 2018 14:53:14 GMT -6
venge said: I am not sure that Natalie mentioned God's wrath in association with the horses. However I tend to agree with you. First of all I do not see the seals and their effects as the "wrath" of God. Judgments- yes, but not wrath. The wrath is clearly indicated later in the revelation when the bowls are poured which are mixed with the wrath of God. The precedent for the effects of the horse seals; Sword, Famine, Pestilence (death) and wild beasts can be found in the Old Testament in Leviticus as consequences to Israel’s disobedience: Note* The underlined verses- Vs 18- Punish 7x more for sin Vs 21- Increase the plague 7x (as a warning/sign like the seals) Vs 23, 24- In hostility- Strike 7x (in discipline like the trumpets) Vs 27, 28- In Wrath- Punish 7x (as a punishment like the bowls) Also note* Vss. 40- 42, how God says that if Israel confesses their iniquity and humbles themselves before Him then God will remember His covenant with them and remember the land. This is ultimately what will result through the events of the 70th week. These "seal effects" are also mentioned in the following OT passages Here also in Ezekiel, however this extends to other nations: They are also mentioned in Jeremiah 15:3, and Ezekiel 5:11-17. God appoints these calamities or doom in response to the sinfulness of nations, Israel and other nations as well, to bring about repentance and justice and to appease His wrath, meaning to stay it or keep it at bay. We see throughout the OT and history concurs, that these effects were born out upon Israel when they refused to follow the Lord. The first four seals and their effects: Conquering nations (wild beasts), war, famine and death with Hades appear to go together and like the change in the work of the Holy Spirit, the effects of the four horseman may have assumed a new role under the New Covenant, when they are sent out by Christ as He removes the seals from the scroll in order to fulfill the prophecies of scripture and bring about His Millennial reign on earth. I believe that Jesus alludes to these effects when He talks about the "birth pains" in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Wars and rumors of wars = the sword Nations against nations= wild beasts famines (and earthquakes)= famine plagues (and famines)= death Like birth pains they will intensify as the final time of the end draws closer. Notice how in Matthew 24:8 Jesus says that these are merely "the beginning of birth pains" We are in that stage, throughout the church age, the world has experienced the very start of birth pains, they intensify as the time to give birth approaches.
Jesus the head of the male child, was born without the woman going into labor, but since then the rest of the child has to be delivered and the birth pains have kicked in. These effects will intensify on earth and once the child is fully delivered will be transferred to the trumpet (disciplinary) and bowl (punishment) judgments.
natalie and RT By Natalie suggesting Christ opens the seals after a rapture (pre Trib theory) she’s suggesting the seals are wrath hence I posed the question . I did not put words in your mouth. I took what you wrote and understood it as such and how you have said it in past threads. Am I incorrect?
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2018 15:47:07 GMT -6
I actually agree with what RT wrote in that the seals are judgement and not wrath. The wrath is mentioned later in Revelation. She laid things out very well.
The difference I have is that I don't think the seals have been opened yet and that we are seeing a foretaste of things to come. It will be world wide devastation when they are opened.
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Post by venge on Aug 26, 2018 18:35:24 GMT -6
I actually agree with what RT wrote in that the seals are judgement and not wrath. The wrath is mentioned later in Revelation. She laid things out very well. The difference I have is that I don't think the seals have been opened yet and that we are seeing a foretaste of things to come. It will be world wide devastation when they are opened. Do you think that as judgement, the seals then come before the rapture now that you agree with RT’s analysis? I hope I answered your question previously. It was not to attack, though I admit my words appear that way sometimes. I am passionate about God’s word. I think my words come off aggressive to some but it’s not how I interpret them when I write. I need to pray for that so people don’t misunderstand my attempt. But, I know you had stated a pre Trib position and it is natural for that position to believe it happens prior to the seals thus they must be wrath as we as believers are not to experience His wrath. I am glad you took the time to write me back. I and RT agree on many things, but I like yourself, don’t think the seals are opened yet though I’m open to it if someone can explain it to me and provide scriptural proof. I am in the middle with others in PMs talking about such things now.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2018 19:03:27 GMT -6
venge - Sorry if my replies seem slower. I am actually on vacation and don't have a lot of time or internet access. I will think about your question (it is a good one) and I will get back to you. It just may be a bit.
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Post by Gary on Aug 27, 2018 9:37:38 GMT -6
I am tosing a question out to the masses here and amongst the great dialog: Who views 4:1 as the actual Rapture? and many a comment is made and I have told been that this is this and that when I had no clue of anything... yet I am not so sure I can agree anymore in checking it out for myself... in regards to this thread and ch 4 and 5... Is what is stated in 4:1 considered to be THE rapture event? I used to be ambivalent on this, but now I believe Rev. 4:1 is a glimpse of the actual rapture. Now whether that means John just had a vision of what the rapture will be like or whether God actually took him through time to experience the actual thing I do not know. A lot could be said about this, but here are a few points: 1. The timing is impeccably placed to signify the pre-trib rapture since it occurs immediately after Chapters 2–3 (the Church Age) and precedes Chapters 6-19 (the Tribulation). 2. After John's rapture experience the Church is not explicitly referenced again until the very end of the book (although hinted at as dwelling in Heaven via the sporadic reappearance of the elders and the Rev. 12 rapture narrative). 3. John was an immediate disciple of Christ and therefore, obviously, someone who will actually take part in the rapture of the Church (or who already did and might possibly be one of the two witnesses). 4. John is raptured into Heaven at the sound of a trumpet (c.f. 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:16) 5. John enters through a door into Heaven in his rapture experience, which just happens to be the exact promise made to the church in Philadelphia just 14 verses earlier (Rev. 3:8)—the church which is promised to escape the time of trial coming on the whole world (Rev. 3:10). From a linguistic perspective, there is significant parallelism between Rev. 2–3 and Rev. 4–5, no doubt John was connecting the promises to the church in Philadelphia to John's experience in Rev. 4:1–2 and connecting the promises to all of the churches to the descriptions of the 24 elders in Rev. 4–5 as I describe here.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2018 12:12:43 GMT -6
I actually agree with what RT wrote in that the seals are judgement and not wrath. The wrath is mentioned later in Revelation. She laid things out very well. The difference I have is that I don't think the seals have been opened yet and that we are seeing a foretaste of things to come. It will be world wide devastation when they are opened. Do you think that as judgement, the seals then come before the rapture now that you agree with RT’s analysis? I hope I answered your question previously. It was not to attack, though I admit my words appear that way sometimes. I am passionate about God’s word. I think my words come off aggressive to some but it’s not how I interpret them when I write. I need to pray for that so people don’t misunderstand my attempt. But, I know you had stated a pre Trib position and it is natural for that position to believe it happens prior to the seals thus they must be wrath as we as believers are not to experience His wrath. I am glad you took the time to write me back. I and RT agree on many things, but I like yourself, don’t think the seals are opened yet though I’m open to it if someone can explain it to me and provide scriptural proof. I am in the middle with others in PMs talking about such things now. I may have taken them a bit agressively, and I too apologize if my answer was a bit snippish (is that even a word? ) Thank you for making me think deeply about Scripture. I am studying and working on an answer for you. I only have my phone, so it will have to wait until I have a computer as it would drive me crazy to try to put it together on here.
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Post by rt on Aug 27, 2018 18:48:51 GMT -6
I am tosing a question out to the masses here and amongst the great dialog: Who views 4:1 as the actual Rapture? and many a comment is made and I have told been that this is this and that when I had no clue of anything... yet I am not so sure I can agree anymore in checking it out for myself... in regards to this thread and ch 4 and 5... Is what is stated in 4:1 considered to be THE rapture event? I used to be ambivalent on this, but now I believe Rev. 4:1 is a glimpse of the actual rapture. Now whether that means John just had a vision of what the rapture will be like or whether God actually took him through time to experience the actual thing I do not know. A lot could be said about this, but here are a few points: 1. The timing is impeccably placed to signify the pre-trib rapture since it occurs immediately after Chapters 2–3 (the Church Age) and precedes Chapters 6-19 (the Tribulation). 2. After John's rapture experience the Church is not explicitly referenced again until the very end of the book (although hinted at as dwelling in Heaven via the sporadic reappearance of the elders and the Rev. 12 rapture narrative). 3. John was an immediate disciple of Christ and therefore, obviously, someone who will actually take part in the rapture of the Church (or who already did and might possibly be one of the two witnesses). 4. John is raptured into Heaven at the sound of a trumpet (c.f. 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:16) 5. John enters through a door into Heaven in his rapture experience, which just happens to be the exact promise made to the church in Philadelphia just 14 verses earlier (Rev. 3:8)—the church which is promised to escape the time of trial coming on the whole world (Rev. 3:10). From a linguistic perspective, there is significant parallelism between Rev. 2–3 and Rev. 4–5, no doubt John was connecting the promises to the church in Philadelphia to John's experience in Rev. 4:1–2 and connecting the promises to all of the churches to the descriptions of the 24 elders in Rev. 4–5 as I describe here. First my answer to barbiosheepgirl ,s question: I do not see Rev 4 as the rapture event, for the reasons I have already stated in this thread. If what John sees in the inauguration of the New Covenant and is an event from John's past, then it cannot be that the rapture happens before the lamb enters as if slain. If people do not see that what is happening there is the beginning of the new covenant era, then I have to ask, what you believe is actually happening there? If the lamb entering as if slain is a future event, then when does that happen, when does Jesus ever enter heaven as if slain again? I led a bible study on the book of Revelation. Those in it, were not very versed in prophecy at all (which frankly surprised me). The first thing I had them do after we went through the letters to the churches is that I had them read through chapter 7 and asked them where they believed the rapture event was depicted in what John saw. Every one of them pointed to the appearance of the multitude around the throne. I did not tell them my own view at all or any other rapture view. They all agreed that the appearance of the multitudes had to be the rapture. The Living creatures and the elders sing the song of the new covenant here, note that they sing about the same group that now appears before the throne: And remember John also tells us at the very start of the revelation this: The "us" here are Christians, and John tells us that this is something that Jesus has already done, he includes himself in that group. Other scriptures back up this idea, that this has already been accomplished for those who follow Christ. We know why a new song is sung in the heavenly tabernacle, it is because something new has taken place, the Lamb enters after He has just made atonement for mankind, and made them to be a kingdom and priests. It seems quite clear to me that this is an event from John's past. If it isn't then does Jesus some time in the future do this again? Does Jesus make people from every tongue, tribe, people and nation to be a kingdom and priests again at some future date yet to be fulfilled? If so then please show me where in scripture this happens. The obvious depiction of the rapture is in Chapter 7 where John sees the innumerable multitude suddenly appear standing before the throne. This said, I do believe that John may serve as a type, for the rapture, but I do not believe that his being called up to the heavenly tabernacle signifies the rapture event itself. My theory, and yes it is just that- a theory, still supports a pre tribulation/pre- 70th week rapture. With the 70th week beginning when the 7th seal is removed from the scroll, the scroll itself represents the final seven years of Daniel's prophecy. The "about a half hour" of silence, as the scroll is opened would represent roughly the first half of the week. One side of the scroll would contain the trumpet judgments and the other the bowl judgments. The seals are clearly on the outside of the scroll, not within it, John sees them all intact and visible and sealing the scroll shut, when the scroll is shown to him in verse 5:1: Therefore I surmise that the 70th week cannot begin until all seven seals are removed.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2018 19:42:31 GMT -6
But RT, 7:14 says the great multitude are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation. And as I have found while preparing an answer for venge, those on Earth see the sixth seal as God's wrath. The church would be removed before that, right?
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Post by douwant2go2heaven on Aug 27, 2018 20:44:14 GMT -6
The whole context of the Book of Revelation is laid out clearly by King Jesus in Chapter 1.
He says in Revelation 1:19
"Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this."
1. "The things that you have seen" was the Resurrected Christ in Revelation 1
2. The things "that are" were the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3
3. And the things "that are to take place after this" is in Revelation 4-22
King Jesus tells us exactly how to rightly divide the book of Revelation. Now please believe that I will be the first to back the truth of there being multifaceted layers to the word of God. But to say that Revelation 4-5 is a flashback to when Christ entered heaven when He ascended back to heaven after His resurrection goes against what King Jesus said in Revelation 1:19.
Everything is post resurrection and ascension in Revelation. And it begins with John recording what he had seen, which was the Glorified Christ. To say that there is a flashback to Christ ascension into heaven is to go against what He said in Revelation 1:19.
That's the bottom line.
And also Psalm 110 tells us why the lamb stands up in Revelation 5. The lamb stands up because it's time to make His enemies His footstool! Hence why His vengeance begins to be poured out the moment He takes the 7 sealed scroll.
Just my thoughts. God bless you and I love you. Amen.
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