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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 18:06:14 GMT -6
Jesus never gives up His role as high priest He is both priest and king. Natalie said: Actually I don't think that Jesus had yet shown John the future yet. But to answer your question I think things may transition to the future with the opening of the fifth and sixth seals, which I believe represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture or catching up of those who are alive in Christ (respectively). Yes I explain this in more detail in the other thread. I think, that the first four seal horses and riders were released by Christ to perform their tasks when Jesus assumed His throne alongside the Father. Just like the change in the working of the Holy Spirit, now being sent out by the Lamb, so to these spiritual entities or those like them, that were present and at work in the Old Testament are now subject to Christ and now are sent out by Him. Clearly the events of the sixth seal have not yet happened on the earth, and therefore they were certainly future to John and are to us as well. Whereas it is easy to see that the effects of the seal riders have been around for eons.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 18:32:58 GMT -6
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote: "He has always been and will always be Prophet, Priest, and King but it seems that He fills those roles at different times." I think fitz's wording is better when he called it His "primary role". Jesus' primary role right now is Priest. He of course is also King, and that will be His primary role in the near future. Thanks for giving me some stuff to think about.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 22, 2018 8:27:46 GMT -6
I think thats the challenge with Revelation to a point. It appears that it is not written in chronological order. Sure the order of the seals, trumpets bowls themselves are in order. It sure seems like Ch 21 is at the end.. Yet we get extra scenes within other chapters, no? Chapter 7 Ch 12/13 Ch 14 are some of the "chapters" that seem to be expounding on events that already happened or are yet to happen.
And Natalie, you, me some ohers have had conversations about what is physical literal and what is metaphorical in Revelation. Things like mountains, seas, earth, locusts, stars mean something more to me...as do the use of the numbers. There are 3 clusters of Sevens in Revelation which seem to total to 21 (Jacobs' trouble?, and each one a third of it, tossing that out there as a plausibility), there is 12 x 12 x 1000 & 2 x 12, There are 7 Churches, there is half a period of 7..these thing seem to have more meaning than just say, the number 144,000, 24, or a 3 1/2 year period.
This probably isnt helping discern future...just me engaging in the conversation
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Post by venge on Aug 22, 2018 13:14:28 GMT -6
Natalie said: So, the rapture takes place (demonstrated by John being called to heaven)
That is not a rapture, as he was in the spirit. Let me post other verses to look at "in the spirit".
Having God in you is being in the spirit.
The spirit that dwells in us allows us to commune to God.
The spirit comes on you and then you are in the spirit. You don't enter another plane of existence or transverse into heaven.
Self explanatory.
Daniel had the spirit of God in him because of his faith. It was this that allowed him to see visions. The same vision being in the spirit that was allowed John to see what he did.
When Christ was baptized and was raised out of the water, was the writer in Heaven literally? Or was he in the spirit back on earth?
Look at Ellicott's commentary:
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 22, 2018 13:28:14 GMT -6
This is how I interpret it as well, venge . Because we are given the Holy Spirit, we are able to understand what our Heavenly Father explains to us, as in those who understood the parables and those who didn't. Jesus said that is why he spoke in parables.
"He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘Though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’ " Luke 8:10
Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot 'see'.
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2018 14:31:40 GMT -6
Good points Venge however when I read Rev I always thought of Johns experience more along the lines of
2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 4:1...Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit:
The words used are different in the Greek for sure but "Come Up Hither"...where did he go? Was he physically caught up? Paul wasnt even sure, so could John have also been? The text doesnt provide the same word and I think either way would be speculative. One thing is for sure...you best be in the spirit when an angel of the Lord speaks to/with you
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Post by venge on Aug 22, 2018 14:51:32 GMT -6
Good points Venge however when I read Rev I always thought of Johns experience more along the lines of 2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.Rev 4:1...Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit:
The words used are different in the Greek for sure but "Come Up Hither"...where did he go? Was he physically caught up? Paul wasnt even sure, so could John have also been? The text doesnt provide the same word and I think either way would be speculative. One thing is for sure...you best be in the spirit when an angel of the Lord speaks to/with you The verses: Think when he said visions, that was it.
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Post by Gary on Aug 23, 2018 11:10:52 GMT -6
But whether or not John was actually raptured is irrelevant. This was a vision, or, perhaps, an actual glimpse of the future, but either way, Revelation 4:1-2 is a clear foreshadowing of the rapture (Called up to Heaven to God's throne, a trumpet, etc). The rapture itself hasn't happened yet, but it will, because God is not a liar and isn't trying to deceive us (Rev. 3:10; 4:1; 5:8–10; 12:5; 20:4; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:16–18; 5:4; 2 Thess. 2:3, 7; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; Acts 15:14–16; Zeph. 1:14–2:3; Jn. 14:1–6; Isa. 17:10–11; 26:17–21; 57:1–2; 66:7–9; Lk. 21:36; Deut. 32:21). We can trust the plain sense of Scripture rather than the ever-changing interpretations of man.
In any case, there's no basis for rigidly applying the term "in the Spirit" to just a state of mind or spiritual state. The literal/plain sense of Rev 4 is that John was commanded to come up into Heaven and at the sound of a trumpet traveled through a portal into it. C.f. Acts 8:26-40 and Philip experiencing a rapture via the Holy Spirit.
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Post by venge on Aug 23, 2018 14:36:01 GMT -6
But whether or not John was actually raptured is irrelevant. This was a vision, or, perhaps, an actual glimpse of the future, but either way, Revelation 4:1-2 is a clear foreshadowing of the rapture (Called up to Heaven to God's throne, a trumpet, etc). The rapture itself hasn't happened yet, but it will, because God is not a liar and isn't trying to deceive us (Rev. 3:10; 4:1; 5:8–10; 12:5; 20:4; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:16–18; 5:4; 2 Thess. 2:3, 7; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; Acts 15:14–16; Zeph. 1:14–2:3; Jn. 14:1–6; Isa. 17:10–11; 26:17–21; 57:1–2; 66:7–9; Lk. 21:36; Deut. 32:21). We can trust the plain sense of Scripture rather than the ever-changing interpretations of man. In any case, there's no basis for rigidly applying the term "in the Spirit" to just a state of mind or spiritual state. The literal/plain sense of Rev 4 is that John was commanded to come up into Heaven and at the sound of a trumpet traveled through a portal into it. C.f. Acts 8:26-40 and Philip experiencing a rapture via the Holy Spirit. Gary, I don’t think I would call an open door a foreshadow of the rapture. As it is announced to the church of Philadelphia that the door is open then and is still open now. It is open currently and there is no rapture. The door acting as a metaphor and not a literal wooden door in the sky. Christ says he knocks and whoever opens he will sup with them right? The door’s function means to choose a life of sinful earthly flesh or to choose to live a life of the spirit. With the spirit the door is open to us but closed to the one that chooses fleshly desire. Look at psalm 84:10 I see zero link to say the door is a shadow of any rapture. Linking it to be apart of resurrection of the dead, the afterlife etc. I agree with you to follow scripture and not mans interpretation to which some commonly held beliefs today in forums are exactly this, mans interpretation and not biblically sound. Edit: I should add, I enjoy things like these as it causes us all to read scripture. There is nothing better in life then pleasing the creator and reading his word, learning growing and showing ourselves approved. The regulars here, I have a lot of love for you guys even when we don’t agree. My best friends have always been the brothern
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Post by rt on Aug 24, 2018 17:08:34 GMT -6
here is something else I recently came across, that reflects the scene in the heavenly throne room which John is called up into denveryouthproject.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/camp256.gifSince what is in the heavenly throne room or tabernacle serves as a pattern for the earthly: not only do we see it reflected in the earthly tabernacle but on a larger scale in the wilderness encampment of Israel as shown in the diagram above. The tribes encamped in four groups, to the north, south, east, and west around the tabernacle. The Priests surrounded the tabernacle at the center and the four camps formed a cross radiating from the center. Each tribe had a specific banner but they all followed the standard of one of four tribes. According to Jewish tradition it was believed that the banners of the tribes were as follows: Judah - East (Lion of gold with a scarlet background). Ephraim - West (Ox of black on gold background). Reuben - South (Man on gold background). Dan - North (Eagle of gold on a blue background). This is further evidence that the 24 elders around the throne are linked to the priesthood of Israel. The encampment reflected the heavenly pattern. God tells us in His word that heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool, In particular, in the wilderness tabernacle and later, Solomon's temple, the ark of the covenant was considered the footstool of God's heavenly throne. God's seat of power is in heaven, but the footstool rests on earth. Picture His feet resting on the ark of the covenant. The Tabernacle and the ark was the vehicle that God used to make His presence known to Israel and the surrounding nations and the priesthood carried out the work of God in the temple. It is humbling to think that in this age of the new covenant, we serve as the temple, we are the footstool of God's throne only because we are the body of Christ, who is now seated on that throne in heaven alongside the Father, we are the "feet" of Christ. This is why that song of the new covenant is so amazing, those 24 elders who served as the pattern for the Old Covenant priesthood, praised the lamb and subjected themselves to His authority (along with the four living creatures) because He had initiated a new covenant with a new priesthood- us! Others here have suggested that Jesus primarily at this time rules as high priest, and I agree - He does, but it is not only Him who does, He is the heavenly pattern for an earthly reality. We also serve as His priests as the vehicle He uses to make His presence known to the world. To spread His word and do His work, for we are now the temple of the Holy spirit.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 24, 2018 19:20:53 GMT -6
We have been working through Exodus on Sundays, and my pastor also commented that he thought the ark was God's footstool. I love the connection to us and being the feet of Christ.
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Post by venge on Aug 25, 2018 6:20:38 GMT -6
Here is a note that I had written that made sense to me...When Jesus starts opening the scrolls, He has moved from His priestly role and interceding for the Church to His Kingly role. He's opening seals and making proclamations. He's calling for and sending forth the four horsemen. The Church has been raptured and is no longer needing a High Priest. We are now serving our King. Just like John, we had been called up to the throne of God and will then see our King in action. He has always been and will always be Prophet, Priest, and King, but it seems that He fills those roles at different times. On earth, He was the Prophet, right now He is our Priest (book of Hebrews), and soon He will rule the earth as King. Here’s a question: When the horseman came in Zechariah two times, we had men of God in the world. Men like Daniel who we think of today as worthy, these prophets and probably non prophets, because we are told. With Daniel that he will stand in his lot at the end of days. So then my question is if the red horses and the white horses and black horses, all these horse man are riding around in the world at different times when God sends them out, are these times the great tribulation? No. Are these times of God‘s great wrath as the horseman go out? No. The horseman have been going out twice in Zechariah at different times And there was no rapture back then. There is no God’s wrath back then. Was there God’s judgment? Yes of course. But to say the horse man are Yahweh’s doomsday wrath then why wasn’t everything destroyed back then when the horseman road? The four horsemen are known as the Horsemen of the apocalypse. But the horse man that road before, the apocalypse never happened. Therefore the future horseman when they ride are not the cause of the apocalypse. And Zachariah says that they ride out to survey the land and report what they find. Peace, war, death or pestilence. Sometimes we see God say that he will punish the gentiles. But The punishment is judgment and not fiery wrath. When did God use horseman for fiery wrath? As God’s people like Daniel (not all Jews) were on earth during the other horseman invasions, why would we be removed before this horse man invasion... that is not God’s fiery wrath like the others were not as well? Sorry, typed on phone. 😉
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Post by rt on Aug 25, 2018 8:57:56 GMT -6
venge said: I am not sure that Natalie mentioned God's wrath in association with the horses. However I tend to agree with you. First of all I do not see the seals and their effects as the "wrath" of God. Judgments- yes, but not wrath. The wrath is clearly indicated later in the revelation when the bowls are poured which are mixed with the wrath of God. The precedent for the effects of the horse seals; Sword, Famine, Pestilence (death) and wild beasts can be found in the Old Testament in Leviticus as consequences to Israel’s disobedience: Note* The underlined verses- Vs 18- Punish 7x more for sin Vs 21- Increase the plague 7x (as a warning/sign like the seals) Vs 23, 24- In hostility- Strike 7x (in discipline like the trumpets) Vs 27, 28- In Wrath- Punish 7x (as a punishment like the bowls) Also note* Vss. 40- 42, how God says that if Israel confesses their iniquity and humbles themselves before Him then God will remember His covenant with them and remember the land. This is ultimately what will result through the events of the 70th week. These "seal effects" are also mentioned in the following OT passages Here also in Ezekiel, however this extends to other nations: They are also mentioned in Jeremiah 15:3, and Ezekiel 5:11-17. God appoints these calamities or doom in response to the sinfulness of nations, Israel and other nations as well, to bring about repentance and justice and to appease His wrath, meaning to stay it or keep it at bay. We see throughout the OT and history concurs, that these effects were born out upon Israel when they refused to follow the Lord. The first four seals and their effects: Conquering nations (wild beasts), war, famine and death with Hades appear to go together and like the change in the work of the Holy Spirit, the effects of the four horseman may have assumed a new role under the New Covenant, when they are sent out by Christ as He removes the seals from the scroll in order to fulfill the prophecies of scripture and bring about His Millennial reign on earth. I believe that Jesus alludes to these effects when He talks about the "birth pains" in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Wars and rumors of wars = the sword Nations against nations= wild beasts famines (and earthquakes)= famine plagues (and famines)= death Like birth pains they will intensify as the final time of the end draws closer. Notice how in Matthew 24:8 Jesus says that these are merely "the beginning of birth pains" We are in that stage, throughout the church age, the world has experienced the very start of birth pains, they intensify as the time to give birth approaches.
Jesus the head of the male child, was born without the woman going into labor, but since then the rest of the child has to be delivered and the birth pains have kicked in. These effects will intensify on earth and once the child is fully delivered will be transferred to the trumpet (disciplinary) and bowl (punishment) judgments.
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Post by venge on Aug 25, 2018 15:18:09 GMT -6
RT,
Nice, well thought write up. I agree with you and your choices of verses to support it are true. Interestingly, though our Lord uses these devices against wicked nations, the devices themselves are present. And, mankind move them. Mankind wars mankind. Mankind kills mankind. Mankind carries diseases knowingly and unknowingly causing a population to be infected.
I don’t know about the seals being opened as you expressed.
Did Christ open them when He ascended or are they opened in the future?
If they were opened 2k years ago, that’s a long time for tribulation/days of sorrow
I think we can agree most of the world today, though fragile, is at peace. Not war and death. If so, the seals are not opened.
In Zechariah, the black horse goes north and white follows symbolizing peace after death. In Revelation, peace is first, then war and death. After them the white horse of peace returns with Christ. He will restore order.
Can we then be in the seals? If so, why isn’t most the world in war and death?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 25, 2018 19:34:07 GMT -6
I am tosing a question out to the masses here and amongst the great dialog:
Who views 4:1 as the actual Rapture? and many a comment is made and I have told been that this is this and that when I had no clue of anything... yet I am not so sure I can agree anymore in checking it out for myself... in regards to this thread and ch 4 and 5...
Is what is stated in 4:1 considered to be THE rapture event?
if it NOT, then where IS the rapture event in Revelation?
I think this is what both rt, venge and natalie are going back and forth over...it has to do with the placement of the seals then. 4:1 comes BEFORE the seals, so I see both venge and rt making a case about the seals...
Just need some clarification as a reader, not a moderator..
love us ALL as we discern! The Lord, I hope, is smiling/grinning at us all!
edit note: This is what I have been told, please correct me if I am stating this wrong:
"The church is not mentioned after Ch 4:1 " "The Seals begin the 7 year Tribulation"
I do not see these statements to be true anymore. I agreed with it until I looked at the layers of Revelation for myself and cross-referenced with other scriptures...
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