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Post by uscgvet on Jul 25, 2018 8:43:32 GMT -6
So I was reading Micah and got to Chapter 7 and I picture what seems to be a rapture, chaos on Earth, Christ pleading His case, God's wrath... and have some questions. I get to verse 2 "The faithful man has perished from the earth". I looked up the word "perished" and found that it can also mean "Vanished" or "was given up as lost" or "taken". Rapture? biblehub.com/hebrew/6.htm"faithful man" can't exactly be the Jews can it? They hung Christ on a cross which isn't exactly faithful. Abraham was accounted for being faithful, Rahab at Jericho, King David, and many others talked about in the book of Hebrews were faithful. I don't think it's God's prophets like Elijah or Elisha either because there were a remnant left with them. Once Rapture happens, there shouldn't be any more faithful people left on earth... After verse 2 it reads like utter chaos for everyone left on earth where nobody can even trust their own spouse. Then by verse 8 it switches back to the faithful man (a sinner) brought to the Lord's light and having the Lord plead his case for him... I'm confused as to who the subject of "she" refers to in verse 10. I'll have to study that one or maybe someone here can give me some info. Then Verse 11 "In the day when your walls are to be built" Who's walls? The faithful man's walls? .... Who is defined as the faithful man that perished(or vanished) from the earth? Why am I picturing a US/Mexican boarder wall? And Assyria (Syria today?) is mentioned as being desolated. ... verse 12-13 After that God get's angry and pwns the place.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 25, 2018 9:16:00 GMT -6
Hey there uscgvet I would go to Isaiah 47, Ezek 43 (from 6 onward) and Zeph 2:15. All of this is seems to be part of (mystery) Babylon. Babylon is not a single city. She is not a single philosophy. She is the kingdom who has stood in opposition to the true Kingdom, Zion. Which to me seems to be : Man operating in in his flesh, elevating himself above God, resting in his (man's) ways and means to appease God and/or to defile God.. When we see the stories of these cities, whom judgement is pending, they are the she's, whores and harlot metaphors. These terms and descriptions are symptoms, behaviors, of the sickness of Babylon of man's heart toward God that is not circumcised in the Spirit..but is his own religion he sees fit to enter heaven, and/ or to deny God's laws and ways. That is what seem to be translating out of His Word , for me anyways, from me being in the Book of Revelation for so long now here at this forum. The Good News is this "her" will be trampled down (Micah 7:10) and many will become healed ( Rev 19, Rev 21:24, Rev 22:1,2)...Revelation's nations being healed to me represent that heart restored to the Lord, as here in the rest of Micah: 18Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.
19He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 25, 2018 10:45:16 GMT -6
Good study notes. I'll look into them. Thank you.
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Post by venge on Jul 25, 2018 12:40:29 GMT -6
Hey there uscgvet I would go to Isaiah 47, Ezek 43 (from 6 onward) and Zeph 2:15. All of this is seems to be part of (mystery) Babylon. Babylon is not a single city. She is not a single philosophy. She is the kingdom who has stood in opposition to the true Kingdom, Zion. Which to me seems to be : Man operating in in his flesh, elevating himself above God, resting in his (man's) ways and means to appease God and/or to defile God.. When we see the stories of these cities, whom judgement is pending, they are the she's, whores and harlot metaphors. These terms and descriptions are symptoms, behaviors, of the sickness of Babylon of man's heart toward God that is not circumcised in the Spirit..but is his own religion he sees fit to enter heaven, and/ or to deny God's laws and ways. That is what seem to be translating out of His Word , for me anyways, from me being in the Book of Revelation for so long now here at this forum. The Good News is this "her" will be trampled down (Micah 7:10) and many will become healed ( Rev 19, Rev 21:24, Rev 22:1,2)...Revelation's nations being healed to me represent that heart restored to the Lord, as here in the rest of Micah: 18Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.
19He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea. Barbie, You said, But Rev 17:18 says, Babylon is a city. She is not a kingdom because verse 15 says, The city sits on others that make up the kingdom. The waters are part of the kingdom, the city is part of the kingdom. That's why in verse 16 we see: The 10 horns don't hate themselves if they are part of the beast. The beast (4th kingdom) and its horns (10 kings 1hr with the beast) hate the city. If the city was the kingdom, how would it explain Christ when he said in Matthew, and in Mark 3:23 He cannot. Babylon is a city as the angel explained the hidden meaning.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 25, 2018 13:54:32 GMT -6
Yes venge it does say she is a great city. But she is acting like a "kingdom" because she sits on many waters, which from vs Rev 17:15 the waters where the harlot sits (resides) are of peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, and KINGS of the earth "commit acts of immorality with her" (17:2). It is funny, John is carried away IN THE SPIRIT and taken into the wilderness to see this woman. She also is sitting on a beast (scarlet). That beast is composed of two characterisitcs: Heads and Horns. (who else is put into the wilderness in revelation? hmmmm.....see Rev 12) The heads we find out are mountains...mountains that are kings. and the 10 horns are also kings. They have not yet received their kingdom. and we go on with more of the description of the beast aspect and its relation to the harlot too. The account in Rev 17 though she is called the Great city, does not negate that indeed she has a kingdom effect, which is perhaps why she is MYSTERY babylon. An example and this is not me making a direct comparison, but in history we have the City of Rome and the Roman Empire. So the "harlot" City (a conglomerate of immoral behaviors/beliefs/self-centered righteousness) can be that driving force creating a "kingdom" over multitudes. And too, why I do not see her as a single entity. Reason: She has a " cup full of abominations and unclean things" Multiple offenses. She is also a MOTHER which it tells me she would have "children." meaning she has been passing on this bad seed SPIRITUALLY. This goes back to my original who is whom, and I believe this it a SPIRITUAL mystery (condition of the heart of man). This thread on Micah 7 just pointed out more scripture eluding to the 'her." I do not believe the harlot is satan, perhaps that is where you thought I was going, but the very verses you pointed out about a kingdom divided against itself is exactly the summary of Rev 17 in essence. the Beast hates the woman goes off to make war with her offspring..which seems to be fulfilling Genesis: 1 5And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed;Our Flesh is at war with Evil and Darkness (satan, the devil that serpent of old) I am totally generalizing here. I am trying to drive home the point that these terms Woman and Her have roots all the way back to the Garden, played out all thru the OT. Abraham and Sarah had Ishmael because they acted in their fleshly desires and not by Faith which gave them Isaac... Before anyone gets anxious about me getting too spiritual, the gospel Good News is that through Faith we will avoid this War of Wrath, Jesus is the Way to Overcome and not suffer this Wrath which it will take to expose her. My mom just pointed out Psalm 12 (also demonstrates a rapture or a disappearance of the faithful, and what is left behind is the boastful) 1Save, O LORD, for the godly one is gone; for the faithful have vanished from among the children of man.
2Everyone utters lies to his neighbor; with flattering lips and a double heart they speak.
3May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, the tongue that makes great boasts,
4those who say, “With our tongue we will prevail, our lips are with us; who is master over us?”Rev 18 7As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’
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Post by venge on Jul 25, 2018 14:29:15 GMT -6
Yes venge it does say she is a great city. But she is acting like a "kingdom" because she sits on many waters, which from vs Rev 17:15 the waters where the harlot sits (resides) are of peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, and KINGS of the earth "commit acts of immorality with her" (17:2). It is funny, John is carried away IN THE SPIRIT and taken into the wilderness to see this woman. She also is sitting on a beast (scarlet). That beast is composed of two characterisitcs: Heads and Horns. (who else is put into the wilderness in revelation? hmmmm.....see Rev 12) The heads we find out are mountains...mountains that are kings. and the 10 horns are also kings. They have not yet received their kingdom. and we go on with more of the description of the beast aspect and its relation to the harlot too. The account in Rev 17 though she is called the Great city, does not negate that indeed she has a kingdom effect, which is perhaps why she is MYSTERY babylon. An example and this is not me making a direct comparison, but in history we have the City of Rome and the Roman Empire. So the "harlot" City (a conglomerate of immoral behaviors/beliefs/self-centered righteousness) can be that driving force creating a "kingdom" over multitudes. And too, why I do not see her as a single entity. Reason: She has a " cup full of abominations and unclean things" Multiple offenses. She is also a MOTHER which it tells me she would have "children." meaning she has been passing on this bad seed SPIRITUALLY. This goes back to my original who is whom, and I believe this it a SPIRITUAL mystery (condition of the heart of man). This thread on Micah 7 just pointed out more scripture eluding to the 'her." I do not believe the harlot is satan, perhaps that is where you thought I was going, but the very verses you pointed out about a kingdom divided against itself is exactly the summary of Rev 17 in essence. the Beast hates the woman goes off to make war with her offspring..which seems to be fulfilling Genesis: 15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; Our Flesh is at war with Evil and Darkness (satan, the devil that serpent of old) I am totally generalizing here. I am trying to rive home the point that these terms Woman and Her have roots all the way back to the Garden, played out all thru the OT. Abraham and Sarah had Ishmael because they acted in their fleshly desires and not by Faith which gave them Isaac... Before anyone gets anxious about me getting to spiritual, the gospel Good News is that through Faith we will avoid this War of Wrath, Jesus is the Way to Overcome this battle.. Barbie, I love you! I do. Lets look over this. You said, Acting like a kingdom is not a kingdom. Her sitting on the waters shows she is a cosmopolitan city much like DC, New York, Budapest, London, Beijing etc....composed over many nationalities... That is not a kingdom but still a city. Then you said, The reason they commit immorality imo based upon numerous biblical scripture I can add later is trade. She is a trade capitol. Her trade is a huge factor in the immorality. This is why we hear about the merchants that bewail her etc....This is a city that does trade with numerous nations and huge business deals worth a lot of money. The reason why she is a mother is because she is a capitol city. Her children are other cities. Much like Jerusalem and Samaria were sisters. Their children were the smaller cities.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 25, 2018 14:40:43 GMT -6
pk venge, no worries. I se what you are saying is giving me a picture of what we (or those left behind) will see manifested in the physical... In some respects we are saying the same thing. A Temple not made with hands... well, we know that is the Body of Christ believers, His Church. Not a literal temple, made with actual stones. And destroy this Temple and in 3 days I will raise it..again, Temple analogy.. Harlot/Woman yes, again, is manifested in all kinds of things and there very likely will be a focal point physcal city that will be destroyed fulfilling Rev 17/18...The reason the City becaomse what she becomes is because of the underlying heart of man.
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 25, 2018 19:05:59 GMT -6
My mom just pointed out Psalm 12 (also demonstrates a rapture or a disappearance of the faithful, and what is left behind is the boastful) 1Save, O LORD, for the godly one is gone; for the faithful have vanished from among the children of man.
2Everyone utters lies to his neighbor; with flattering lips and a double heart they speak.
3May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, the tongue that makes great boasts,
4those who say, “With our tongue we will prevail, our lips are with us; who is master over us?”Rev 18 7As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’I love the Psalm 12 disappearing faithful reference! Thank your mom for me. And what's the general consensus of the identity of the mystery Babylon?
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Post by venge on Jul 26, 2018 12:51:53 GMT -6
My mom just pointed out Psalm 12 (also demonstrates a rapture or a disappearance of the faithful, and what is left behind is the boastful) 1Save, O LORD, for the godly one is gone; for the faithful have vanished from among the children of man.
2Everyone utters lies to his neighbor; with flattering lips and a double heart they speak.
3May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, the tongue that makes great boasts,
4those who say, “With our tongue we will prevail, our lips are with us; who is master over us?”Rev 18 7As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’I love the Psalm 12 disappearing faithful reference! Thank your mom for me. And what's the general consensus of the identity of the mystery Babylon? Ha! Depends on who you ask. There is some here that say: 1. Rome 2. America (Though that is not a city) 3. NYC or Washington DC 4. Mecca in Saudi Arabia 5. Jerusalem There are many cities in the world today that can be called spiritually Babylon. People tend to choose cities that they are familiar with where they reside because they see the wickedness in them. Hence to some in the USA, they may say NYC but a Pakistani Christian might say Islamabad. Some believe it is Jerusalem because of a very important statement made. Rev 18:24 says, Also, in Rev 16 we see: First ask yourself what are rivers and fountains of water? Don't think literal. The bible is a spiritual book. Think spiritually what are rivers and fountains of water. Those turn to blood. Remember back to the Exodus when the literal river turned to blood? The fish died because they cant live in it. We are the fish. But who are these fish that shed the blood of saints and prophets. Did they physically shed the blood because it says they gave them blood to drink.....or is shedding the blood a metaphor? =P It is easy to look away from Jerusalem and say other cities. It is my opinion the city is a major city or a capitol. Reasons I can tell you later if interested. But I will share some verses to why some believe it is Jerusalem that match up with Revelations verses: and Finally,
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Post by uscgvet on Jul 26, 2018 19:37:31 GMT -6
I love the Psalm 12 disappearing faithful reference! Thank your mom for me. And what's the general consensus of the identity of the mystery Babylon? Ha! Depends on who you ask. There is some here that say: 1. Rome 2. America (Though that is not a city) 3. NYC or Washington DC 4. Mecca in Saudi Arabia 5. Jerusalem There are many cities in the world today that can be called spiritually Babylon. People tend to choose cities that they are familiar with where they reside because they see the wickedness in them. Hence to some in the USA, they may say NYC but a Pakistani Christian might say Islamabad. Some believe it is Jerusalem because of a very important statement made. Rev 18:24 says, Also, in Rev 16 we see: First ask yourself what are rivers and fountains of water? Don't think literal. The bible is a spiritual book. Think spiritually what are rivers and fountains of water. Those turn to blood. Remember back to the Exodus when the literal river turned to blood? The fish died because they cant live in it. We are the fish. But who are these fish that shed the blood of saints and prophets. Did they physically shed the blood because it says they gave them blood to drink.....or is shedding the blood a metaphor? =P It is easy to look away from Jerusalem and say other cities. It is my opinion the city is a major city or a capitol. Reasons I can tell you later if interested. But I will share some verses to why some believe it is Jerusalem that match up with Revelations verses: and Finally, Very strong case for Jerusalem as Mystery Babylon. Lots to chew on here. Thank you all for your contributions.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 26, 2018 23:30:43 GMT -6
My mom just pointed out Psalm 12 (also demonstrates a rapture or a disappearance of the faithful, and what is left behind is the boastful) 1Save, O LORD, for the godly one is gone; for the faithful have vanished from among the children of man.
2Everyone utters lies to his neighbor; with flattering lips and a double heart they speak.
3May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, the tongue that makes great boasts,
4those who say, “With our tongue we will prevail, our lips are with us; who is master over us?”Rev 18 7As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’I love the Psalm 12 disappearing faithful reference! Thank your mom for me. And what's the general consensus of the identity of the mystery Babylon? Babylon is a false economy that is in contrast to God's economy. That is, God's economy involves compassion, love, friendship, etc. Whereas, Babylon is any economy that involves greed, taking advantage of others, theft, etc. So when Babylon falls then the economy of the world falls and it is replaced by an absolutely new system that involves the mark of the beast. It is a type of credit debit system that does not involve theft and taking advantage of others because it is a computer system based on some kind of algorithm. Just my own ideas on the subject.
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Post by venge on Jul 27, 2018 8:26:56 GMT -6
If Babylon is a false economy opposed to God’s as you say, then it must be spiritual and not literal as God’s is. That would not be an economy on credit cards or implanted chips but iniquity.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 27, 2018 12:04:37 GMT -6
If Babylon is a false economy opposed to God’s as you say, then it must be spiritual and not literal as God’s is. That would not be an economy on credit cards or implanted chips but iniquity. Good point Venge. So Babylon is a wicked economy that is spiritually in opposition to God's true economy. This wicked economy, Babylon, gets replaced with "the mark of the beast" economy in our time. Babylon's name sake "The Kingdom of Babylon" headed by Nebuchadnezzar marked one of the truly great economies of the world at that time. Today, Babylon is primarily "capitalism" that dominates the globe.
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Post by venge on Jul 27, 2018 13:41:57 GMT -6
If Babylon is a false economy opposed to God’s as you say, then it must be spiritual and not literal as God’s is. That would not be an economy on credit cards or implanted chips but iniquity. Good point Venge. So Babylon is a wicked economy that is spiritually in opposition to God's true economy. This wicked economy, Babylon, gets replaced with "the mark of the beast" economy in our time. Babylon's name sake "The Kingdom of Babylon" headed by Nebuchadnezzar marked one of the truly great economies of the world at that time. Today, Babylon is primarily "capitalism" that dominates the globe. I don’t know if anything is in our time, but, I would think Babylon is the mark and doesn’t replace the mark because mystery Babylon (the city) and it’s people will accept the mark freely. That is simply, identifying with Babylon and supporting it. I agree capitalism is a type of Babylonian economy but as Ezekiel 27 and 28 shows, the main part is trade. Nations do trade to gain wealth thru imports and exports. This kingdom and city will have vast wealth and opulence because of trade. A kingdom full of selfishness, lust, pride, riches, gluttony, no cares of the world.
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 3, 2018 21:45:21 GMT -6
Just found this from the now late Dr. Chuck Missler on his thoughts on Babylon
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