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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2017 6:25:05 GMT -6
Hey brothers and sisters, I hope everyone is holding up well in late November.
I didn't know where this really belonged, but I think maybe 'Worship' may be the best for it. Please change it if you think it should go elsewhere.
I've been digging into the Word and found something that I want to hear your opinions on.
Exodus 12:14-20
“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever. In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.”
This is the Lord talking to Moses and Aaron about what to tell the people of Israel concerning the soon passover that is going to occur (when the Lord kills every firstborn in the land of Egypt except those with the blood of a un-blemished lamb on their door).
Exodus 12:17
"And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever."
1) Do you think this includes generations of Christians or not? Why?
Exodus 12:19
"For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land."
"Whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land."
2) Are you positive that the natives are not native Israelites from Jacob, and sojourners are not grafted-in Christians? 3) Have we been failing to celebrate this day (and other biblical feast days this whole time?) 4) Or are we totally a different people than Old Testament 'Israel', and our duty is all about Jesus, and nothing to do with the Old Testament?
Maybe I'm off here, but I can't shake the feeling that, though literally God absolutely meant for Moses to address the actual, literal people of Israel at the time, there's a good possibility He is also meaning a simultaneous metaphorical Israel (which actually means strives with God), such as "any who are God's people" per se, the sojourners, so to speak, not native to the actual blood-relation of Abraham, but related in spirit and in truth.
5) What are your thoughts here? Am I totally off? 6) Are we to celebrate the feasts as Christians? Why don't we?
They seem a lot more God-glorifying than what most Christians celebrate nowadays - Easter, Halloween, Christmas (certainly well-meaning holidays in some regard, but also definite Pagan origins).
Looking forward to hearing what you think!
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Post by Natalie on Nov 18, 2017 9:53:40 GMT -6
This is my personal thoughts, but I am up to looking at it a different way and being corrected..
We have much freedom in Christ. We are free to celebrate the feasts or not celebrate them. I think much can be learned by studying and celebrating the feasts. The feasts were to point toward the Messiah; we now celebrate communion to point to the Messiah.
I also think that Easter and Christmas can be a lot more God-glorifying than how it is most often celebrated. It has to be a choice though on what a family will focus on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2017 10:29:18 GMT -6
Our family stopped celebrating the traditional Christian holidays about 16 years ago and begin celebrating the feasts of God as spoken of in Scripture. We don't do this out of an obligation to the law, but because it's fun and because we are blessed by studying the feasts and the plan of God's salvation that they reveal. Though we no longer celebrate Christmas and Easter, we also recognize that this is God's request of us and not necessarily everyone around us. I agree with Natalie that this is something that people must hold up to the Lord and ask for him to open their eyes and then walk in the faith of what he tells him.
Since we have first fruits, which often coincides with Easter, we don't experience much of a loss in the spring but if I was totally honest, my wife and I often go through withdrawals during the Christmas season. It has been one of the more difficult things the father has asked us to do.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2017 14:02:42 GMT -6
@silentknight
What is it specifically about Christmas you think that compels you to not celebrate it?
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Post by yardstick on Nov 19, 2017 20:49:11 GMT -6
Hey brothers and sisters, I hope everyone is holding up well in late November. I didn't know where this really belonged, but I think maybe 'Worship' may be the best for it. Please change it if you think it should go elsewhere. I've been digging into the Word and found something that I want to hear your opinions on. Exodus 12:14-20
“This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever. In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.” This is the Lord talking to Moses and Aaron about what to tell the people of Israel concerning the soon passover that is going to occur (when the Lord kills every firstborn in the land of Egypt except those with the blood of a un-blemished lamb on their door). Exodus 12:17"And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever."
1) Do you think this includes generations of Christians or not? Why?Exodus 12:19
"For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land."
"Whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land."
2) Are you positive that the natives are not native Israelites from Jacob, and sojourners are not grafted-in Christians? 3) Have we been failing to celebrate this day (and other biblical feast days this whole time?)4) Or are we totally a different people than Old Testament 'Israel', and our duty is all about Jesus, and nothing to do with the Old Testament?Maybe I'm off here, but I can't shake the feeling that, though literally God absolutely meant for Moses to address the actual, literal people of Israel at the time, there's a good possibility He is also meaning a simultaneous metaphorical Israel (which actually means strives with God), such as "any who are God's people" per se, the sojourners, so to speak, not native to the actual blood-relation of Abraham, but related in spirit and in truth. 5) What are your thoughts here? Am I totally off?6) Are we to celebrate the feasts as Christians? Why don't we? They seem a lot more God-glorifying than what most Christians celebrate nowadays - Easter, Halloween, Christmas (certainly well-meaning holidays in some regard, but also definite Pagan origins). Looking forward to hearing what you think! 1) The target audience is the 12 Tribes of Israel during the giving of the law at Sinai. The point was to make sure they always remembered how their firstborn sons were 'passed over'; and how bitter it would have been had they not been passed over.
2. Yes, since God wanted them to be sure that they made sure that no one brought leaven into their houses during this time period. They would have no excuse if leaven was found. Not even "It's not mine, it's my guest's".
3) No, and here's why: The Jews were chosen out as a special people. Their job was to demonstrate how much better it was to choose their God versus a pagan god. They were supposed to proselytize to the world and by conversion, pagans would be grafted in. Having better health, fewer problems with their possessions, greater wealth, et al from following the dietary and 'economic' laws, the temple sin laws et c., was supposed to be physical 'worldly' evidence that their God was THE God, and HIS way was the only way. But as we all know, they refused to do what they were called out of the nations to do, and the rest is history. 4) Yes we are totally different than "Israel"; and God is not done with them yet! We are 'to do the will of Him who sent [Christ]' as directed by the holy Spirit of God. Although neither one jot, nor one tittle of the law has been done away with; it is Grace through faith, not of works which is the key to salvation. The law was always about works! Some have said that the purpose of the law was to show that it was impossible to fully and completely comply with it 24/7.
5) Think about it this way: The law, as given, is a great representation of the holiness of God! All those ceremonies, and sacrifices! God is HOLY, and our inability to meet him at his level necessitated his action of first giving the law to the Jews, then giving salvation by faith through grace, first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles! Notice how that is so much different than in #3? For a gentile to become 'saved' under the law, he (assuming male) would first have to undergo all of the ritual requirements that the Jews were commanded to perform! Including, but not limited to, circumcision, dietary requirements, clean/unclean inspection and isolation, and then the sacrifices! Plus, what tribe would he belong to? How would he join? Would it be easy or hard? Who would give his daughter in marriage to such a man? How would he derive an income so as not to starve? Do you think the 'native' Jews would have turned their noses up at him and made it even more difficult than just following the law? 6. Its optional! read Romans 14!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 12:16:34 GMT -6
yardstickThanks for the reply! My final question is, of course living and being under the umbrella of the true gospel of Christ - that it is His righteousness, not ours by any means, and His blood and His gift and our faith in Him by which we are saved.... Are we to strive to obey the laws of the Old Testament? In Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Is Jesus meaning the Old Testament Law, or the words on the sermon on the mount that He is about to give (whatever Jesus says in the New Testament) or both? For example, although bearing in mind that our works are like filthy rags to Him, does God want us to circumcise our children on the 8th day like he commanded Israel? I can't think of another example, but it is things like this that I am curious about. Like does God want us to honor the feasts? I know you say it is optional, but do you think it would make His heart glad if we chose to honor His Word even in the Old Testament (perhaps through practicing the feasts)? Or do you think His heart would be equally glad if we refrained from practicing them? I guess what I'm getting at is how much do you think God wants us to know and obey the laws and commandments of the Old Testament in addition to knowing and living out the teachings of Jesus? Or are those one and the same? Or are we strictly supposed to remember our place as Gentiles, and only listen to what Jesus says in the New Testament, and Paul, the apostle to the gentiles? And are we to basically discard explicit laws/commandments/statutes in the Old Testament "because Jesus"? Again, in an attempt to phrase my question better, bearing in mind and heart the grace and gift of God that is in salvation, and the depth of His love for us, are we not to run from evil and sin? And isn't breaking God's word/law sin? So shouldn't we be mindful of the Old Testament and all of its laws? Sorry, a lot of words I know, but hopefully someone can give me some clarity on this.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 20, 2017 12:46:52 GMT -6
Read Acts 15. Gentile believers were asking similar questions. (Especially verses 5, 10, and 20...the OT would explain the why of verse 20)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 13:31:50 GMT -6
I have come to understand that the law, as revealed to the Israelites was a token of the character of God. They were not just random rules that God decided to obligate people to. There is a purpose behind the laws. Many of them have immediate or longer timeframe temporal/earthly benefit. However, even deeper, all of the law has spiritual implications and is presented to us to help us learn about and understand our Creator. Whenever we use the word "Should we do this or that." People can hear that in different ways - 1. Should = in order to be saved, 2. Should = because it is beneficial, 3. Should = in order to obey. As yardstick and @natalie have pointed out - we are under no obligation from a salvation perspective. Or even from the perspective of obeying the law physically. However, David meditated on the law day and night. He loved the law of God. When one does delight in the law he becomes " like a tree firmly planted ... and whatever he does shall prosper" (ps 1). The reasons for this is the understanding we gain of who God is. By understanding the law we know the character of God. This, in turn, draws us nearer to him and allows us to hear him more effectively and to walk in faith. (Please see the Hearing God thread for more on this). All too often, under the (correct) understanding that we are not "under" the law, we give the law little attention. In so doing, we miss out on a great blessing and testimony to Christ. Keeping in mind, after His resurrection, Christ shows people how he was revealed in the scriptures - the law and prophets. So - though we have no "obligation" to be obedient to the letter of the law - we should still seek to understand the spiritual side of the law and thereby walk in the spirit of truth. 2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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Post by yardstick on Nov 20, 2017 17:26:27 GMT -6
yardstick Thanks for the reply! My final question is, of course living and being under the umbrella of the true gospel of Christ - that it is His righteousness, not ours by any means, and His blood and His gift and our faith in Him by which we are saved.... Are we to strive to obey the laws of the Old Testament? In Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Is Jesus meaning the Old Testament Law, or the words on the sermon on the mount that He is about to give (whatever Jesus says in the New Testament) or both? For example, although bearing in mind that our works are like filthy rags to Him, does God want us to circumcise our children on the 8th day like he commanded Israel? I can't think of another example, but it is things like this that I am curious about. Like does God want us to honor the feasts? I know you say it is optional, but do you think it would make His heart glad if we chose to honor His Word even in the Old Testament (perhaps through practicing the feasts)? Or do you think His heart would be equally glad if we refrained from practicing them? I guess what I'm getting at is how much do you think God wants us to know and obey the laws and commandments of the Old Testament in addition to knowing and living out the teachings of Jesus? Or are those one and the same? Or are we strictly supposed to remember our place as Gentiles, and only listen to what Jesus says in the New Testament, and Paul, the apostle to the gentiles? And are we to basically discard explicit laws/commandments/statutes in the Old Testament "because Jesus"? Again, in an attempt to phrase my question better, bearing in mind and heart the grace and gift of God that is in salvation, and the depth of His love for us, are we not to run from evil and sin? And isn't breaking God's word/law sin? So shouldn't we be mindful of the Old Testament and all of its laws? Sorry, a lot of words I know, but hopefully someone can give me some clarity on this. @silentknight described the situation nicely, imho: It is beneficial if you do; however, there is no penalty if you do not. Keep in mind I am not talking about penalty in the sense of consequences of one's actions. For example, consumption of unclean animals tends to have a negative effect on the body.
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Post by nana on Nov 20, 2017 19:51:26 GMT -6
I believe the feast were/are part of the law which we Christians are not under because we are under grace.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 9:35:15 GMT -6
@silentknight What is it specifically about Christmas you think that compels you to not celebrate it? pillar - As with most things in my life, this is not something that I weighed the pro’s and con’s and then made a decision. I believe the Lord moved my heart. I have done research on Christmas and how it originated and other related factors, but this was all after the fact of the Lord asking me to cleanse it from my life. The removal of Christmas and Easter came around the same time as the addition of the Feast of God. We had never participated in Halloween. During my research, I certainly found things that would support why God would not see these holidays as particularly honoring of Him. Even if we take all the commercialization out. Even if we take all the pagan origin and traditions out. Even if we remove the counterfeit, works based, Christ (Santa). We still have the thought that Jesus wasn’t even born on December 25, but most likely born in the Fall. So for me it was like, Hey let’s celebrate the Lord’s birthday - on a day that he wasn’t born - in a way that does not honor him - on the anniversary of a holiday that worships other gods. However, it does seem that perhaps the wise men did visit Jesus on or around December 25th after Jesus had left the stable. We have added a birthday celebration for Jesus to our celebration of the Feast of Trumpets each year. Here’s the thing - I know that Christmas is very special to a lot of people and that in their hearts, they are honoring God when they celebrate. So I would not make a declaration that people should not celebrate Christmas. I can only follow the leading of the Lord in my life. He has had me on a different path for many years as you may be able to tell from some of the other threads to which I am contributing. I don’t know how much God cares about Christmas - but I do know He cares about my obedience to his word. I also know that Christmas does move a lot of people, both believing and unbelieving toward God. And like I said before, it is one of two areas that I have given up in obedience that continues to fester within me every year - perhaps when it stops bothering me, the Lord will give it back. I just know that my wife is gonna kick my butt if we get to Heaven and Jesus says - dude, you totally could have been celebrating Christmas. She’ll just look at me with one of those, you owe me, looks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 10:58:59 GMT -6
@silentknight
Amen brother, good for you for walking in obedience to what He has lead you to do.
Do you celebrate all seven feasts with your family?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 11:03:47 GMT -6
I believe the feast were/are part of the law which we Christians are not under because we are under grace. nanaDo you believe that because we are under grace, instead of looking at the words of God in the Old Testament and the New Testament, we ought to just simply engage in relationship with Him? Are we not under some sort of Law still? Or would you say it's the "law of grace", so to speak?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 11:11:33 GMT -6
Read Acts 15. Gentile believers were asking similar questions. (Especially verses 5, 10, and 20...the OT would explain the why of verse 20) Wow this chapter is very similar to what I'm dealing with! NatalieOk, with verse 5, I understand that it is not necessary. And with verse 10, it is clear that we are to remember the grace and sufficiency of God and His righteousness, by no means losing sleep over adherence to the law. So in verse 20, would you say that all of what is mentioned - things polluted by idols, sexual immorality, "what has been strangled", and blood - that these are meant to reflect the law of the Old Testament completely? Or are those things the only things that we ought to "abstain" from?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 11:30:55 GMT -6
@silentknight Amen brother, good for you for walking in obedience to what He has lead you to do. Do you celebrate all seven feasts with your family? We have evolved our celebrations over the years. We started with Passover, First Fruits, Trumpets, and Tabernacles. We added Pentecost and The Day of Atonement more recently. We incorporate unleavened bread into Passover. We have our own family traditions in the way we celebrate and we keep changing them a bit. They are wonderful teaching moments for the kids and often we invite others to join us and this allows us to teach others as well. I'm sure a jew celebrating with us would be quite disgusted as we have little regard for the legalities of it. We have not been led to celebrate purim or hanukkah.
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