What I personally believe as far as the chronology goes is the key is reading this more like a musical composition. So that it actually is both an overview of the first advent and a more descript reading if the return in the second movement as the last week of Daniel plays out. The sign of the virgin we know from those new programs tell us that alignment had occurred around 3 BC so right now I think that's where the repeat would begin after the coda. First sequence then pretty obvious birth and ascension and where Israel goes is a mystery but the dragon did assault Christianity and in my view the Beast was created a long time ago. So with that view, I read those bowls and vials as both an overview of history and a more detailed description of the last week. So as to the two witnesses, they are both advents. It's telling the story of each advent.
Very interesting and thoughtful perspective, Jerryh! I second a lot of your sentiment and recently discussed a concept of "parallel" and/or "layered" prophecy in the recent Parable of the Vineyard live-stream.
Welcome to the board, btw!
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."
Thanks Gary. Reading it like that it's the second time through that the second Beast arises that resurrects the first. In a sense, a repeat of 70ad. If the first advent was also one of the 2 witnesses, the time of Jesus ministry would about fit in that 1260 days or whatever it is The dragon isn't hard to spot in church history. I think I know how he try's to devour the baby at birth if the sign of the virgin with the normal gestation period meant normal birth at the second advent. If you follow the narrative of the rider in that white horse you already have him pegged as the AC. It's a false prophecy just like the one saying the temple had to be rebuilt. I think that rider is Jesus.
Jude (ESV) - 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
You will note that this is a precedent of God for bringing about punishment and judgement upon Israel for their disobedience. You will also notice that within this passage you can find reference to the first four seals. Verse 21- the Beasts (which I believe are the conquerors of the first seal horse and rider), verse 25- the sword, verse 26- famine, verse 25- pestilence (death and Hades), they are referenced throughout the passage in other verses as well.
These effects are also mentioned in other OT passages , but that is a study for another time. Getting back to Leviticus, in the passage you can find an intensification of these effects:
verses 14-17- when the people refuse to obey and reject God's commands-the people are given a first chance to repent and obey Verse 18- when the people continue to disobey they are punished seven times more for sin (God intensifies the punishment with a second warning) verse 21-when the people act with hostility toward God there is an increase in the plague seven times (as a third warning/ corresponding to the seals) verse 23,24- If after the third warning they still do not repent then God will respond with hostility and strike them seven times (in discipline/ corresponding to the trumpets) verse 27-28- finally if after all this they still do not repent then God responds in wrath and vengeance - punishing seven times (as punishment/ corresponding to the bowls)
The purpose in intensification is to bring the offender to repentance and a restored relationship with God, If they refuse to repent then God punishes in wrath. Though the effects appear similar, they are not the same, each step happens consecutively and in order and therefore do not occur at the same time. Remember that the purpose of the tribulation is to ultimately turn Israel back to God and reconcile them to Himself. He laid out to them here in the OT what His plan is to bring that about, and we see it perfectly played out in the Revelation which brings about that result. Therefore the seals and trumpets and bowls, at least in my observation happen consecutively. Though I do believe that some of their effects overlap and are intensified throughout the 70th week.
Just my two cents
This makes perfect sense and I believe is absolutely correct. I vote no to overlapping.
I need to study up on this. I haven't spent much time researching the significance, timing, or overlaps of the seals/trumpets/vials. One thing I'm learning though is that if you take Revelation as a purely chronological story you run into big problems. I think there is definitely a flow to it and a beginning and ending (things that were, things that are, things that are to come, etc), but there are also interludes and what seem to be overviews with differing perspectives at certain points.
What problems do you see in a chronological interpretation?
This is how overlapping prophecies in Revelation appear.
For me, it only makes sense for the Revelation and Mathew 24 to be chronological. Over lapping and duplicating the prophecies in Revelation seems illogical and only confounds my understanding of them. It implies that God, for some reason, found it necessary to repeat prophecies. I can understand why God would repeat the same prophetic message by different prophets, but not three times by the same prophet in the same book.
Example: Rev 11 shows the 2 witnesses precede the 7th trumpet but if taken chronologically, they cant come in after Rev 10. The reason being, the 2 witnesses are around for 42 months or half of the 70th week. That would place their beginning before the trumpets that sounded. Rev 12 doesn't follow the 7th trumpet. Its showing things in the past and future. It works better as an interlude. Rev 13 is a description to understand the beast. It is not meant for placement in chronology imo. Rev 14 is not meant to fit chronologically either. What it does is it shows the placement of 3 things how they fall IN THE Chronology previously seen from chapters 6 to 11. It shows Babylon falls after the 144k are sealed. The harvest of the earth also AFTER Babylon's fall. With each of these 3 things shown, there are other things in between them filling in this chronology. But, understanding the when (time) of each thing opens up Revelation. The position of the 144k is easy as most of us already see when it happens. I think God gives that one freely as a starting point. Babylon's fall and the harvest are harder. I have my own opinion on both of these when they happen. Rev 15 happens before the bowls as is obvious with the text. Rev 17 and 18 are explanations. Rev 19 once again shows Babylon's fall via Rev 14. It precedes the marriage which is between the harvest of the earth and the destruction of the wicked. Lastly, the defeat of the beast and the false prophet. Notice Satan is absent because he's already been sealed. This is shown in Rev 20. You have to wrap your head around the context of it. Satan is sealed when Christ begins to reign and his saints are resurrected. This doesn't happen after the beast is slain, this happens before the beast and false prophet are slain. This is because Christ invites saints to the wedding feast which precedes things events and Christ must make the kingdoms of this world his. He doesn't do this till the 7th Trumpet is sounded in Rev 11:15. The beast and false prophet slain happen at the final destruction of the wicked.
So yes, following it all chronologically is imo impossible. I believe Revelation was written this way for only those who study scripture to one day understand. Its not meant to be understood by a regular person. Its not meant to be understood by the wicked. Its not meant to be put our on the internet and change 150 ways. I think God reveals it a piece at a time to those that seek it. Me, you, others on the forums. But it is complex to hide it to from the world, that they may fall into the pit. I truly believe that. Ears that don't hear, eyes but they cannot see right?
Servant: EnochWalked: Not a problem, Netanyahu and Trump are probably the 'last' stand before the political chaos to be unleashed upon the world. Maybe? And the China virus, warrant an attention on it for any further mutation.
Jan 21, 2020 20:20:07 GMT -6
Servant: leewiggins63: Please provide the link, thanks.
Jan 21, 2020 20:21:44 GMT -6
EnochWalked: Thanks Servant, and thanks Lee for the link. I've traced that "10 Supernations" map/idea back to this article from 2009: www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2363.cfm It seems to have been related to just NAFTA originally, so nothing specific to the USMCA.
Jan 21, 2020 21:13:51 GMT -6
leewiggins63: Thanks EW, first article that I've seen concerning the 10 horns.
Jan 21, 2020 21:30:12 GMT -6
Servant: All the world leaders attending in Israel sure makes it perfect target for some kind of attack to wipe them all out. Or Rapture. Either way, chaos would reign the day.
Jan 21, 2020 23:07:40 GMT -6
Servant: While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Could the peace plan in Israel be it? I could be wrong and it means something else. Either way, . . .
Jan 21, 2020 23:09:57 GMT -6
Natalie: Servant - I have been wondering that too.
Jan 22, 2020 8:47:23 GMT -6
Natalie: Or the dwelling safely of Ez 38
Jan 22, 2020 8:48:58 GMT -6
Natalie: I am also wondering if it will provide a way for the Temple.
Jan 22, 2020 8:54:02 GMT -6
Servant: Natalie: Yes, I thought about it. But I debate posting it as I don't want to raise the hopes too high. Still, to think the possibilities. . .
Jan 22, 2020 9:48:35 GMT -6
disciple4life: Hello Leewiggings63, others, What is USMCA?? Anyone else read any credible reports about the so-called "Trump peace plan imminent?" There is an article on the main page, but no sources. Lots of speculation and conjecture that it divides Israel.
Jan 22, 2020 16:04:20 GMT -6
disciple4life: We've been reading about the "imminent reveal" since March of last Year. If the speculation and gossip were true and it gave land to the Leprechauns, this doesn't start the tribulation. Why are so many people up in arms about this.??
Jan 22, 2020 16:16:31 GMT -6
disciple4life: If we see construction or surveying begin on the 3rd temple, then I think people have reason to get excited. but this - Meh.
Jan 22, 2020 16:17:05 GMT -6
disciple4life: Natalie, I'm curious re your thoughts about the connection betw the deal and the temple. I've read some theories that it could include land for the Jordanian Arabs aka Leprechauns in exchange for the Jews getting space on/near temp mt to build 3rd temple.?
Jan 22, 2020 18:50:42 GMT -6
Natalie: D4L It's just speculation. Trying to guess the future. I know that some see Trump as a type of Cyrus, as maybe someone who could get an agreement for the building of the Temple. I have no idea if that's in the deal but it would be interesting if it was
Jan 22, 2020 19:49:14 GMT -6
EnochWalked: www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/274937 "senior officials said Netanyahu did not announce Likud's election campaign Tuesday night because he is waiting until next week to bring the issue of [Jordan Valley] sovereignty for a Knesset vote."
Jan 22, 2020 20:19:10 GMT -6