What I personally believe as far as the chronology goes is the key is reading this more like a musical composition. So that it actually is both an overview of the first advent and a more descript reading if the return in the second movement as the last week of Daniel plays out. The sign of the virgin we know from those new programs tell us that alignment had occurred around 3 BC so right now I think that's where the repeat would begin after the coda. First sequence then pretty obvious birth and ascension and where Israel goes is a mystery but the dragon did assault Christianity and in my view the Beast was created a long time ago. So with that view, I read those bowls and vials as both an overview of history and a more detailed description of the last week. So as to the two witnesses, they are both advents. It's telling the story of each advent.
Very interesting and thoughtful perspective, Jerryh! I second a lot of your sentiment and recently discussed a concept of "parallel" and/or "layered" prophecy in the recent Parable of the Vineyard live-stream.
Welcome to the board, btw!
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."
Thanks Gary. Reading it like that it's the second time through that the second Beast arises that resurrects the first. In a sense, a repeat of 70ad. If the first advent was also one of the 2 witnesses, the time of Jesus ministry would about fit in that 1260 days or whatever it is The dragon isn't hard to spot in church history. I think I know how he try's to devour the baby at birth if the sign of the virgin with the normal gestation period meant normal birth at the second advent. If you follow the narrative of the rider in that white horse you already have him pegged as the AC. It's a false prophecy just like the one saying the temple had to be rebuilt. I think that rider is Jesus.
Jude (ESV) - 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
You will note that this is a precedent of God for bringing about punishment and judgement upon Israel for their disobedience. You will also notice that within this passage you can find reference to the first four seals. Verse 21- the Beasts (which I believe are the conquerors of the first seal horse and rider), verse 25- the sword, verse 26- famine, verse 25- pestilence (death and Hades), they are referenced throughout the passage in other verses as well.
These effects are also mentioned in other OT passages , but that is a study for another time. Getting back to Leviticus, in the passage you can find an intensification of these effects:
verses 14-17- when the people refuse to obey and reject God's commands-the people are given a first chance to repent and obey Verse 18- when the people continue to disobey they are punished seven times more for sin (God intensifies the punishment with a second warning) verse 21-when the people act with hostility toward God there is an increase in the plague seven times (as a third warning/ corresponding to the seals) verse 23,24- If after the third warning they still do not repent then God will respond with hostility and strike them seven times (in discipline/ corresponding to the trumpets) verse 27-28- finally if after all this they still do not repent then God responds in wrath and vengeance - punishing seven times (as punishment/ corresponding to the bowls)
The purpose in intensification is to bring the offender to repentance and a restored relationship with God, If they refuse to repent then God punishes in wrath. Though the effects appear similar, they are not the same, each step happens consecutively and in order and therefore do not occur at the same time. Remember that the purpose of the tribulation is to ultimately turn Israel back to God and reconcile them to Himself. He laid out to them here in the OT what His plan is to bring that about, and we see it perfectly played out in the Revelation which brings about that result. Therefore the seals and trumpets and bowls, at least in my observation happen consecutively. Though I do believe that some of their effects overlap and are intensified throughout the 70th week.
Just my two cents
This makes perfect sense and I believe is absolutely correct. I vote no to overlapping.
I need to study up on this. I haven't spent much time researching the significance, timing, or overlaps of the seals/trumpets/vials. One thing I'm learning though is that if you take Revelation as a purely chronological story you run into big problems. I think there is definitely a flow to it and a beginning and ending (things that were, things that are, things that are to come, etc), but there are also interludes and what seem to be overviews with differing perspectives at certain points.
What problems do you see in a chronological interpretation?
This is how overlapping prophecies in Revelation appear.
For me, it only makes sense for the Revelation and Mathew 24 to be chronological. Over lapping and duplicating the prophecies in Revelation seems illogical and only confounds my understanding of them. It implies that God, for some reason, found it necessary to repeat prophecies. I can understand why God would repeat the same prophetic message by different prophets, but not three times by the same prophet in the same book.
Example: Rev 11 shows the 2 witnesses precede the 7th trumpet but if taken chronologically, they cant come in after Rev 10. The reason being, the 2 witnesses are around for 42 months or half of the 70th week. That would place their beginning before the trumpets that sounded. Rev 12 doesn't follow the 7th trumpet. Its showing things in the past and future. It works better as an interlude. Rev 13 is a description to understand the beast. It is not meant for placement in chronology imo. Rev 14 is not meant to fit chronologically either. What it does is it shows the placement of 3 things how they fall IN THE Chronology previously seen from chapters 6 to 11. It shows Babylon falls after the 144k are sealed. The harvest of the earth also AFTER Babylon's fall. With each of these 3 things shown, there are other things in between them filling in this chronology. But, understanding the when (time) of each thing opens up Revelation. The position of the 144k is easy as most of us already see when it happens. I think God gives that one freely as a starting point. Babylon's fall and the harvest are harder. I have my own opinion on both of these when they happen. Rev 15 happens before the bowls as is obvious with the text. Rev 17 and 18 are explanations. Rev 19 once again shows Babylon's fall via Rev 14. It precedes the marriage which is between the harvest of the earth and the destruction of the wicked. Lastly, the defeat of the beast and the false prophet. Notice Satan is absent because he's already been sealed. This is shown in Rev 20. You have to wrap your head around the context of it. Satan is sealed when Christ begins to reign and his saints are resurrected. This doesn't happen after the beast is slain, this happens before the beast and false prophet are slain. This is because Christ invites saints to the wedding feast which precedes things events and Christ must make the kingdoms of this world his. He doesn't do this till the 7th Trumpet is sounded in Rev 11:15. The beast and false prophet slain happen at the final destruction of the wicked.
So yes, following it all chronologically is imo impossible. I believe Revelation was written this way for only those who study scripture to one day understand. Its not meant to be understood by a regular person. Its not meant to be understood by the wicked. Its not meant to be put our on the internet and change 150 ways. I think God reveals it a piece at a time to those that seek it. Me, you, others on the forums. But it is complex to hide it to from the world, that they may fall into the pit. I truly believe that. Ears that don't hear, eyes but they cannot see right?
raindrop: Not to mention that the RC church removed the commandment forbidding us from making images of anything, in heaven or on earth, and bowing down to pray and worship. It is SO messed up.
Jul 16, 2019 9:23:22 GMT -6
Joecool: Yes Thank You God for Tacos, also Thank You our salvation doesn't rely upon us.
Jul 16, 2019 9:29:32 GMT -6
mike: Amen Joe. I like to think that our salvation was dependant on us. Adam & Eve changed that. Not that the Lord want prepared
Jul 16, 2019 10:18:37 GMT -6
bernie: I was raised in the cult of Rome, but my 17th B-Day I joined the military and was gifted a Gideons NT at the induction center. I left the rituals & superstitions of Rome shortly thereafter, when God's Word revealed the truth to me.
Jul 16, 2019 10:27:27 GMT -6
mike: Isa 11:10, John 3:14, John 8:28, John 12:32 - and many indicate that it is the SON and only the Son who should be the focus of mens hearts. Unfortunately there are those who believe otherwise in many, too many other belief systems
Jul 16, 2019 10:41:13 GMT -6
bernie: Salvation is not in rituals, good works, or anything else. It's a free gift wrapped up in a whole lot of grace, mercy & love, and it' available to all freely by simple faith in Christ crucified as the perfect & complete payment for the sins of the world.
Jul 16, 2019 10:41:21 GMT -6
bernie: The Roman Mass violates the book of Hebrews which says there are no more sacrifices for sin. It claims the priest calls down Christ from Heaven and re-sacrifices him at every mass they perform. If that's not blasphemous, I don't know what is.
Jul 16, 2019 10:48:03 GMT -6
EnochWalked: Basically, someone who knew Luther wrote an ambiguous, out of context, half-remembered supposed quote of what Luther said to him one day. Luther was probably talking about Christ's unfairly maligned reputation, and how God "made him to be sin for us".
Jul 16, 2019 18:02:14 GMT -6
bora: There was a point that the Father withdrew his spirit from Christ. Perhaps it was then that sin was upon the Savior and he died as an eternal payment.
Jul 16, 2019 23:48:15 GMT -6
EnochWalked: "Included in this will be an international court based on Biblical principles." They really do plan for a One World Government, run from Jerusalem, under Rabbinic law. I think we know what sort of person they want as the leader of this government.
Jul 17, 2019 12:15:15 GMT -6
EnochWalked: “Even in a benign AI scenario we will be left behind,” he said. “With a high-bandwidth brain-machine interface, we can actually go along for the ride. We can have the option of merging with AI.”
Jul 17, 2019 12:21:33 GMT -6
Joecool: They are gonna make a mistake when they try hooking it up to my brain. It will make the matrix go haywire.
Jul 18, 2019 7:13:03 GMT -6
Joecool: Also Thank You Yahweh for the beautiful skyline this morning.
Jul 18, 2019 7:13:27 GMT -6
mike: If you're like me wondering "how much longer Lord?" Tho I don't 100% agree with Wilkerson this should help as perspective and urgency. youtu.be/ogOKp7V-eNs
Jul 18, 2019 17:43:24 GMT -6