I need to study up on this. I haven't spent much time researching the significance, timing, or overlaps of the seals/trumpets/vials. One thing I'm learning though is that if you take Revelation as a purely chronological story you run into big problems. I think there is definitely a flow to it and a beginning and ending (things that were, things that are, things that are to come, etc), but there are also interludes and what seem to be overviews with differing perspectives at certain points.
It appears that there are a number of vignettes, describing details of some of the events.
It also appears that there are parallel prophetic viewpoints/perspectives of the same events, depending on the chapter and section.
But I see significant descriptive differences between the trumpet judgements and bowl judgements. (i.e. Rev 8:8, vs Rev 16:3 - 1/3 of creatures vs every living thing)
Has anyone ever considered that each Trump is blown and then a vile is poured out? Versus seven trumps blown and then seven bowls are poured out? I see in the scriptures that Trumpets are blown for a pronouncement and then what they pronounced happened. If we were to follow the rule of first mention, then it would seem that it would go trumpet then vial, trumpet then Vial, trumpet then vial, etc.
How would you explain the potential discrepancy between Rev 8:8, where 1/3 of the sea was turned to blood and 1/3 of the creatures in it died, and Rev 16:3 where every living thing in the sea died?
BTW, what you are describing is one of the eschatological hypotheses, where each seal, trumpet and bowl is matched up and they occur 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3 et c.
Well, unfortunately, Truthseeker isn't around to answer your question, but it is one of the biggest problems with that interpretation of events.
I don't believe this is the way it works, but one possible way around it (I'm already getting in trouble!) is to ask "which sea?" In Greek, I don't know, but in Hebrew the term sea can refer to many different things, from the Mediterranean to the Dead Sea to the Sea of Galilee, to a river--it's quite vague. Question is does this refer to ALL the oceans of the world, or a specific sea?
But I agree, in my understanding, this is a major problem for this scenario.
I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 1, 2017 10:25:36 GMT -6
Posted by yardstick12 minutes ago
I think this thread got... 'resurrected'...
That was me asking about the Seals, they resurrected (re-opended) this thread... What do we do? There is a great opinion by rt, on the seals, and then this trumpet/bowl study is complex...I think these two thread should be pinned to the top perhaps?
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thes 5:9 KJV
Post by truthseeker on Sept 2, 2017 5:13:41 GMT -6
I don't believer that because a trumpet then bowl/vial sequence could occur, that it means seals/trumpets/bowls ALL have to come in a 1/1/1 sequence, By reading scripture, I mentioned that Trumpets were used to announce , so maybe they were announced before the actions individually. It was worth considering at the time.
Since then, I took a break from unsealed threads. I have been given instruction to use the gifts given me face to face and to encourage/edify the body or those steeped in religion afraid they won't make it.
As far as ch 8 and 16 ; ch 8 is a partial earthly judgment on Gentile nations coming against Israel during the first half, 16 becomes wrath upon the whole earth to a Christ rejecting WORLD.
That's just how I currently see it. I don't spend as much time anymore on the 70th week events. They're rough, so I'm trying to use the last days to talk/ pray people into being opened to the Truth of the gospel.
Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 4, 2017 8:21:08 GMT -6
I had read a book called "The Rise and Fall of the Antichrist: Islam, Allah, and the Antichrist in Prophecy" by Charles Massegee. A little background on him: "Charles was elected President for an unprecedented three terms of the National Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists, 1969, 1970, and 1971. He served two terms as Vice President and two terms as President of the Conference of Texas Baptist Evangelists, 2013 and 2014" and he's been a "full-time vocational evangelist" (from: massegee.org/about-us/charles-massegee/).
His book was the first one I had read that went through Revelation verse by verse with explanation of numbers and symbols. I was pretty amazed with it and felt like it really opened my eyes. How he views the seals, trumpets and bowls is more or less traditional—they all occur within the 7 years. However, he views the trumpets as partial judgments—wake up calls—and the bowls as judgments that "complete the wrath of God" (Rev 15:1). Thus, a trumpet is blown and then a bowl is poured to complete the judgment. Here are some excerpts from the book from the chapters on the trumpets and bowl judgments. (I have the book on Kindle so citing page numbers is useless.)
—"Again and again, we see in the midst of God’s judgment and wrath, the love, mercy, and longsuffering of our Lord. His sword is two edged. Even in the midst of judgment, He is still offering mercy."
—"Jesus is ready to open the seventh seal. The opening of the seventh seal introduces us to the last three and a half years of the Tribulation.The seven trumpets will be blown, and the seven bowls of the wrath of God will be poured out, climaxed by the return of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon. During the first three and a half years of the Tribulation, we see the rise of the antichrist as the first six seals are opened. During the last three and a half years, we see the downfall of the antichrist as the seventh seal opens up the seven trumpet judgments, and the pouring out of the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
—"There are several reasons why there are seven trumpets, and seven bowls of the wrath of God. Why not only one, two, or perhaps three? Because God is loving, longsuffering, and merciful, even toward the most rebellious sinner. He tries every way possible to persuade sinners to repent, and turn to Him. During the blowing of the seven trumpets, and the pouring out of the seven bowls of the wrath of God, He puts His mighty power on display in a way never before witnessed. As the word of God is preached, and the moving of the Holy Spirit is experienced, the whole world enters into all kind of convulsions and disasters. Many will wake up to the fact that only God could do this. Over, and over, and over again, the Bible tells us why God is allowing these convulsions, disasters, and all kind of tribulations to come upon the whole earth."
—"The angels do not blow all the trumpets at once. The angels do not pour out all the bowls of the wrath of God at once. After each trumpet is blown, and after each bowl of the wrath of God is poured out, God displays His power in a different way. He does this to prove He is God, and in control of everything. Many turn to Christ after each of the six trumpets sound, and after each of the six bowls of the wrath of God are poured out. It is too late when the seventh trumpet sounds and the seventh bowl of the wrath of God is poured out. After each of the six trumpets sound and after each of the six bowls of the wrath of God is poured out, He turns up the heat. His power and control are demonstrated in a more magnificent way each time one of the trumpets sounds and each time one of the bowls of God’s wrath are poured out. Why? “Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord, the holy One of Israel.” Everything God does is for the purpose of redemption. Hard hearted, spiritually cold, defiant people must be dealt with more harshly. To reach rebellious people for Christ, He has to use extreme calamities, and tribulations to get their attention. At first, most people will have a hard time understanding why a loving God would allow such calamities on the world"
—"We see seven angels preparing to sound the seven trumpets. Each time a trumpet sounds, a partial judgment comes, immediately followed by a bowl of the wrath of God that intensifies, and completes the judgment. We are not given any details when the seven trumpets sound, and the seven bowls of the wrath of God are poured out. We are just given the outline of events of the last three and a half years of the Tribulation. It’s like a minister, or a speaker getting up to speak, and all he does is give us the outline of his message, but no details. Then he comes back later to give us the details. This is exactly what God does when giving the visions of the seven trumpets, and the seven bowls of the wrath of God. He first gives us the outline. Then He comes back later in the “time out” Chapters to follow up, and gives us the details, as we will see."
—"15: 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is COMPLETE. (Revelation 15: 1) Keep the word “complete” in mind. The seven bowls of the wrath of God that will be poured out are called plagues. In Bible days, plagues were defined as disastrous calamities with a high rate of mortality. Notice the word “complete.” The seven bowls of the wrath of God will complete the seven trumpet judgments, as we will see... We must parallel these two series of judgments."
—"If the seven bowls of the wrath of God are poured out after all the seven trumpets have sounded, we would have Jesus coming back two times, and we would have two Battles of Armageddon."
I'm not sure why the bowl judgments would have to occur quickly after the trumpets, if this view of Rev is accurate. If we merged rt's pre-trib seal view with this one, there'd be 7 years just for the trumpets and bowls. I could see that a trumpet could be blown, then months later even up to a year possibly, the corresponding bowl poured out, and you would still see the distinctness of the judgments. I'm not married to any interpretation of the judgments in Rev since we're not going to be here. It's not going to matter to us. What does matter is making sure people left behind understand that there is still grace and mercy to be found in Jesus Christ. Yes, God is judging the planet, but He will save your soul if you believe and accept the sacrifice of His Son for your sin.
I forget, rt, what is your take on the 7 thunders? How might that play in this scenario? or not?
From the chapter titled, "The Mighty Angel," from the Massegee book, his take on the Seven Thunders is thus:
—"This Mighty Angel delivers a message from the seven thunders, but John is not allowed to write it down. 10: 3 "And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. And when he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices." (Revelation 10: 3) 10: 4 "Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them." (Revelation 10: 4) This Mighty Angel had such a booming, authoritative voice that it sounded like a lion roaring when he spoke. As this angel roared like a lion, seven thunders were heard. As John had his pen in hand preparing to write what the seven thunders said, God stopped him, and said, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.” I am tempted to speculate as to whom these seven thunders are, and what they said, but when the Bible is silent on a matter, it is best that we be silent too. In Mark 3: 16-19, some of the Apostles were referred to as “sons of thunder.” However, I do not think there is any connection here. Thunder is the sound that follows a flash of lightning, and is caused by a sudden expansion of the air in the path of the electrical discharge. While we may not understand the details, God is preparing to bring about all kinds of changes in weather patterns, lightning, thundering, cosmic phenomena, worldwide earthquakes, and hail stones weighing over 75 pounds. Since all 333 prophesies of the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally, to be on the safe side, I am compelled to take these prophesies concerning the Second Coming literally. If one day I learn that some of these prophecies should be taken more symbolically, I believe they will be even more real, and spectacular, if that is possible. If God had wanted us to understand the seven thunders, He would have told John to write it down. Since God never says anything, unless it is important to someone, I believe God allowed John to hear what the seven thunders said in order to give him a better perspective as he wrote the Book of Revelation. However, God did not think we needed to know. So after telling John what the seven thunders said, God told him He didn’t want anyone else to know."
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new!" (2 Cor 5:17)
Post by truthseeker on Sept 4, 2017 10:28:45 GMT -6
My mind was clarified better by this video
Because 1/3 are destroyed during the trumpets and all the earth is destroyed during the bowls
The different judgments are shown as seals are wrath of the Lamb, Trumpets as wrath of Satan, Bowls are wrath of God. It portrays the 7 years of an accumulative action- starting with wrath of one, ending with wrath of 3, awaiting Jesus to rescue the final remnant!
Servant: EnochWalked: Not a problem, Netanyahu and Trump are probably the 'last' stand before the political chaos to be unleashed upon the world. Maybe? And the China virus, warrant an attention on it for any further mutation.
Jan 21, 2020 20:20:07 GMT -6
Servant: leewiggins63: Please provide the link, thanks.
Jan 21, 2020 20:21:44 GMT -6
EnochWalked: Thanks Servant, and thanks Lee for the link. I've traced that "10 Supernations" map/idea back to this article from 2009: www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2363.cfm It seems to have been related to just NAFTA originally, so nothing specific to the USMCA.
Jan 21, 2020 21:13:51 GMT -6
leewiggins63: Thanks EW, first article that I've seen concerning the 10 horns.
Jan 21, 2020 21:30:12 GMT -6
Servant: All the world leaders attending in Israel sure makes it perfect target for some kind of attack to wipe them all out. Or Rapture. Either way, chaos would reign the day.
Jan 21, 2020 23:07:40 GMT -6
Servant: While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Could the peace plan in Israel be it? I could be wrong and it means something else. Either way, . . .
Jan 21, 2020 23:09:57 GMT -6
Natalie: Servant - I have been wondering that too.
Jan 22, 2020 8:47:23 GMT -6
Natalie: Or the dwelling safely of Ez 38
Jan 22, 2020 8:48:58 GMT -6
Natalie: I am also wondering if it will provide a way for the Temple.
Jan 22, 2020 8:54:02 GMT -6
Servant: Natalie: Yes, I thought about it. But I debate posting it as I don't want to raise the hopes too high. Still, to think the possibilities. . .
Jan 22, 2020 9:48:35 GMT -6
disciple4life: Hello Leewiggings63, others, What is USMCA?? Anyone else read any credible reports about the so-called "Trump peace plan imminent?" There is an article on the main page, but no sources. Lots of speculation and conjecture that it divides Israel.
Jan 22, 2020 16:04:20 GMT -6
disciple4life: We've been reading about the "imminent reveal" since March of last Year. If the speculation and gossip were true and it gave land to the Leprechauns, this doesn't start the tribulation. Why are so many people up in arms about this.??
Jan 22, 2020 16:16:31 GMT -6
disciple4life: If we see construction or surveying begin on the 3rd temple, then I think people have reason to get excited. but this - Meh.
Jan 22, 2020 16:17:05 GMT -6
disciple4life: Natalie, I'm curious re your thoughts about the connection betw the deal and the temple. I've read some theories that it could include land for the Jordanian Arabs aka Leprechauns in exchange for the Jews getting space on/near temp mt to build 3rd temple.?
Jan 22, 2020 18:50:42 GMT -6
Natalie: D4L It's just speculation. Trying to guess the future. I know that some see Trump as a type of Cyrus, as maybe someone who could get an agreement for the building of the Temple. I have no idea if that's in the deal but it would be interesting if it was
Jan 22, 2020 19:49:14 GMT -6
EnochWalked: www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/274937 "senior officials said Netanyahu did not announce Likud's election campaign Tuesday night because he is waiting until next week to bring the issue of [Jordan Valley] sovereignty for a Knesset vote."
Jan 22, 2020 20:19:10 GMT -6